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Post by René on Apr 12, 2018 22:10:33 GMT
"Fernando Alonso says that expectations that McLaren should have done better at the start of the 2018 Formula 1 season were unrealistic."
I mean, really. Not intended as McLaren or Fernando bashing but this is rather sad, isn't it? I remember clearly Mr. Bouiller last year telling the world that McLaren had probably the best chassis, if not the second best. With the Renault engine in the back it should therefore be close to Red Bull or at least the Renault works team.
But of course McLaren didn't have the best chassis last year nor the best aero. They are trying to fool the world and themselves. The world already knows it's a joke for quite a while but McLaren is still living in an orange bubble. Who can save McLaren?
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Post by chrisb on Apr 13, 2018 5:21:03 GMT
maybe Rene their 'restructure?'
sorry but McLaren have screwed up, and I am not seeing a bright future at this stage, maybe bring back Sam Michaels?
but the biggest and for me the saddest picture is at Williams, really feel that is a tragedy looming
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2018 10:44:17 GMT
Had another laugh after the race when Ferrari's ex Marlboro man commented that it was an exciting race, what bloody planet do these clowns actually live on . I'll agree that in comparison to a damp track MotoGP race, any F1 race is going to struggle to be exciting. But, I thought Bahrain was an exciting F1 race. There was great racing right through the field, and a real cliff hanger race to the flag with Vettel on worn soft tyres, being chased down by Bottas and Hamilton. So yeah, I'd agree with Marlbrobene, an exciting race.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2018 10:58:47 GMT
"Fernando Alonso says that expectations that McLaren should have done better at the start of the 2018 Formula 1 season were unrealistic."I mean, really. Not intended as McLaren or Fernando bashing but this is rather sad, isn't it? I remember clearly Mr. Bouiller last year telling the world that McLaren had probably the best chassis, if not the second best. With the Renault engine in the back it should therefore be close to Red Bull or at least the Renault works team. But of course McLaren didn't have the best chassis last year nor the best aero. They are trying to fool the world and themselves. The world already knows it's a joke for quite a while but McLaren is still living in an orange bubble. Who can save McLaren? The expectations of high performance mostly came from McLaren themselves. There were hopes from their fans, and many neutrals, but they've been fueled by some big talk by Brown, Boullier, Alonso and others from McLaren. If they are already starting to 'restructure' that looks as if there is a bit of despair creeping in. Its going to be another long season for McLaren.
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Post by René on Apr 13, 2018 11:26:09 GMT
Had another laugh after the race when Ferrari's ex Marlboro man commented that it was an exciting race, what bloody planet do these clowns actually live on . I'll agree that in comparison to a damp track MotoGP race, any F1 race is going to struggle to be exciting. But, I thought Bahrain was an exciting F1 race. There was great racing right through the field, and a real cliff hanger race to the flag with Vettel on worn soft tyres, being chased down by Bottas and Hamilton. So yeah, I'd agree with Marlbrobene, an exciting race. I am with you on this one. It wasn't a bad race and even quite exciting at times. Hey, and a Ferrari won! Marlbrobene, I like...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2018 11:34:36 GMT
What we are seeing this year, with harbingers from several years now, is how difficult is for a team to stay on top when the original owner/management leaves or is side-lined. This reminds all the sniping comments on the many British motorsport forums, naturally fuelled by what reported over the years on the local press, of the periods of alleged shenanigans and upheaval which Ferrari have gone through. Which obviously never considered, among other issues, that Ferrari has always been far removed from the main F1 hub Britain has been so far.
Not easy to keep going and being relevant at the top level. Lotus disappeared, Williams has been irrelevant for two decades now, McLaren too has won the last championship ten years ago and only one in almost twenty.
People should think before keep on bashing Ferrari every time they lower the bar.
"What goes around come around"
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Post by charleselan on Apr 13, 2018 12:50:21 GMT
Let us say that I beg to differ René and Jim. For me good exciting and close racing comes about when the equipment used by the competitor is relatively equally balanced. That is why MotoGP is good, damp tracks or variable conditions do not make this series exciting; what does make it so, is the fact that DORNA have worked closely with the manufacturers to make the bikes relatively similar in performance. For instance, standardised and simplified ECU's were the beginning, which is one of the soundest ideas that can be applied.
By doing so they haven't instigated a formula that is virtually a one make series, but balanced the performance of the machines. The bikes are not identical in how they work either, some makes go well in one part of a given circuit while another will be strong at another point. Also a new comer like Suzuki or KTM or Aprillia will have a concession to help them develop over he course of a season. Once they are up to speed then the concession goes, but on the reverse if they drop off like Suzuki did last year they will be given a concession once more (as they have this year).
Just think of where Honda might be right now if they had been given something similar in F1, without the self aggrandising McLaren of course. Also it may well have encouraged other manufacturers to enter the series, not saying it would but it would have been more attractive to do so.
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Post by René on Apr 13, 2018 14:29:43 GMT
JC, I very much agree with a lot of what you say. I am not blind of modern F1's issues (too complex aero, cars too heavy and long and the gap between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' is too big). But as I mentioned before, I am not ready/willing to give up on F1 just yet. And I do still feel excited before the start of every race. I was a bit disappointed after Melbourne but really thought Bahrain was a lot better. I also think F1 is more complicated compared to MotoGP. The bikes will always be less aero influenced and thus have more overtaking. And a race doesn't need a lot of overtakes to be a good race (well, you know that of course). But I agree the element of surprise is lacking in F1 but as we discussed before, that has also a lot to do with modern reliability. You said: "For me good exciting and close racing comes about when the equipment used by the competitor is relatively equally balanced." True, but hasn't this always been an issue with F1? It's a difficult balancing act to give the designers and engineers enough freedom and at the same time limit their options to safeguard close competition. There used to be more freedom and when a team did a better job compared to the others, you had a huge advantage (think 1978 or 1988). Now the rules are so boarded up all the energy goes into the few areas that are still relatively free like the front wings which results in those over complex 'wings' we have now that look weird and are bad for racing. What am I trying to say here? Well, as I said I agree with a lot of your points and I also feel changes need to be made to improve Formula 1. Get rid of the gimmicks like DRS and focus on better racing. I only do not know how this all can be done without ending up with a spec series...
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Post by mikael on Apr 13, 2018 15:03:49 GMT
One thing that, in my opinion, detracts a good deal from the excitement and “anticipation” is the radio communication. As JC pointed out in another thread, earlier, a driver had to figure out basically anything by himself. That is still true in MotoGP. In F1, any driver now has a complete “space mission control center” behind him, and they take all decisions for him, more or less. Earlier when the driver’s strategic thinking ability was a major factor in the game, that factor added significantly to the excitement. Now all strategic thinking is taken care of for him.
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Post by robmarsh on Apr 13, 2018 15:14:18 GMT
I think they should do away with all the data transfers that allow them to plot all the possible outcomes. They should just reduce the bandwidth that enable the teams to broadcast back to base. There are so many ways they could reduce costs without worrying about how many engines or gearboxes a team uses. Three engines a season is ludicrous and doesn't save costs or improve the racing. I saw somewhere last year that the engine manufacturers may destroy up to 100 engines making them reliable enough to last five races. Why not just give those to the teams and destroy them in public. The cost is the same. They could also reduce the pit crew. I watched Senna change his tyres in the 1993 South African GP on a youtube clip. I think there were only ten guys and the pit stop took about four seconds. It was just as exciting. Less equipment, less pit crew, cuts back on airfares, freight and hotel bills. I am sure that adds uo to a few engines per year.
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Post by René on Apr 13, 2018 15:26:45 GMT
One thing that, in my opinion, detracts a good deal from the excitement and “anticipation” is the radio communication. As JC pointed out in another thread, earlier, a driver had to figure out basically anything by himself. That is still true in MotoGP. In F1, any driver now has a complete “space mission control center” behind him, and they take all decisions for him, more or less. Earlier when the driver’s strategic thinking ability was a major factor in the game, that factor added significantly to the excitement. Now all strategic thinking is taken care of for him. That is a very good point Mikael with which I wholeheartedly agree. F1 is too focussed on being high tech and professional and in the meantime loosing sight of its core essence. Getting rid of all the radio contact (and the control center) would be a good step. I watched an interesting documentary a few weeks back that made me think of this same issue. The documentary was about chess wonder Magnus Carlsen. It showed his background and upbringing and his early tournaments up until the big match against then World Champion Viswanathan Anand in 2013. The match was held in Anand's home country India and the Champion was well prepared. Every chess grandmaster has a few assistants to advice him but Anand had taken this to a new (Formula 1 like) level. He had rented an entire floor of a luxury hotel and in every room of that floor where several assistants analysing all of Carlsen's games he ever played for over a week. This should give Anand extra ammunition against this wonder boy from Norway. It didn't help him in the end, he lost his world title. It just shows that this form of 'over-professionalism' also happens in other sports.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2018 20:17:34 GMT
Let us say that I beg to differ René and Jim. For me good exciting and close racing comes about when the equipment used by the competitor is relatively equally balanced. That is why MotoGP is good, damp tracks or variable conditions do not make this series exciting; what does make it so, is the fact that DORNA have worked closely with the manufacturers to make the bikes relatively similar in performance. For instance, standardised and simplified ECU's were the beginning, which is one of the soundest ideas that can be applied. I didn't mean to imply that MotoGP needs a damp track to be exciting, in the last couple of seasons it has been massively close and exciting in all conditions. But MotoGP has been through a heck of a lot of turmoil and change to get to this current format, that provides good close racing. To do that they have constrained the technology the teams can use, which for the pinnacle series in any motorsport is a negative step, in my view. With F1, there is good close racing, and has been for most of this hybrid era. It may not be at the front of the field, although last season and so far this season it has been, but in the mid pack there is lots to enjoy. Maybe the fact the mid pack are so close, despite different p.u's, chassis and aero concepts, is evidence that a cost cap would lead to better racing.
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Post by Carl on Apr 13, 2018 20:19:58 GMT
Every point made here is wonderfully valid, an amazing testament to the knowledge around our table! All of these ideas would improve Formula One if encompassed in an overall reform of the Central Technology Locus that was once primarily a sport. When technocrats are given a measure of authority, they tend to blind with science. "It's poetry in motion She turned her tender eyes to me As deep as any ocean As sweet as any harmony Mm, but she blinded me with science She blinded me with science!" -Thomas Dolby A good first step would have Adrian Newey gather together every winglet and subsidiary element and go away. Attachment DeletedAttachment Deleted
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Post by robmarsh on Apr 14, 2018 8:09:51 GMT
Every point made here is wonderfully valid, an amazing testament to the knowledge around our table! All of these ideas would improve Formula One if encompassed in an overall reform of the Central Technology Locus that was once primarily a sport. When technocrats are given a measure of authority, they tend to blind with science. "It's poetry in motion She turned her tender eyes to me As deep as any ocean As sweet as any harmony Mm, but she blinded me with science She blinded me with science!" -Thomas Dolby A good first step would have Adrian Newey gather together every winglet and subsidiary element and go away. I think Adrian Newey should only design sedans. That way with all his aero designs taking effect he would ensure safe following distances on the freeways.
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Post by Jamie on Apr 14, 2018 8:45:52 GMT
Looks like Ferrari have the genuinely quickest package now so an interesting qualifying session from that point of view. I’d quite like to see Kimi win this one to at least temporarily maintain some equilibrium in the team.
Here’s hoping for a good race 👍
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