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Post by robmarsh on Sept 10, 2019 18:17:34 GMT
Charles is back and we are all having fun exchanging views. All is good in this part of my world. Thank you guys.
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Post by mikael on Sept 11, 2019 4:02:59 GMT
I must admit though that some of Charles' moves on Lewis left me with a feeling of unease ... Reading Rob's post, I came to think about a TV-portrait - a very strong and unforgettable one - of Ukyo Katayama, that was aired on (Japanese) television (NHK) some years ago, around the time when Katayama, after his retirement from motorsport, was in the news due to his mountaineering exploits (climbing Mount Everest, Mount Fuji, ..., he was not able to just wind down and relax, apparently). A typical interview-setup in Japan is that there is both a female and a male interviewer. Katayama's huge crash at the start of the '95 Portuguese GP was shown. (Here Katayama tangled wheels with another driver; his car barrel-rolled and ended up in highly disintegrated condition.) The female interviewer had apparently not seen it before and was genuinely shocked. Her reaction was something like, "My goodness, how terrible! Weren't you afraid?" Katayama shrugged his shoulders and said, "But you know, anyone in Formula One has experienced something like that. Anyone who reach F1 has, at some time or another, had a huge shunt." As I remember the interview, the female interviewer was at a loss for an answer. But it seems to be true. Trying to think of a top F1 driver who never had a big shunt, no-one comes to mind. Fangio, Moss, Hill, ..., they all experienced it. And for some, it was really a close call. |
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Post by chrisb on Sept 11, 2019 4:16:26 GMT
nice post Mikael, and I am struggling to think who hasn't had a big shunt - Mario? Jack? and maybe a controversial one , but Mike Hawthorn, maybe James Hunt? aww definitely one to think about
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Post by charleselan on Sept 11, 2019 11:44:45 GMT
That is a really interesting one Mikael. I suppose it also depends on what degree of big "shunt" we are referring to, however when one thinks about it any accident in motor sport is a big one. I have been thinking hard but as it stands cannot think of anyone who has not had a fairly big accident at some time or other.
I believe that some used to qualify the accident as to whether or not the driver sustained injury. I don't think that Jim Clark ever drew blood in an accident other than when struck in the face on one occasion, although he did have two big car wrecking accidents in non championship races at Aintree in 1964 and Brands Hatch in 1965, but was otherwise unscathed.
We all know that Gilles stepped out of a few, but like Jim I don't think he was hurt in any serious way following these.
Ayrton had a big one in a McLaren one year, can't recall when exactly, but it was a heavy.
Ronnie had a huge one in F3 at Montlhéry driving the prototype March which flipped and caught fire in which he luckily escaped with some burns.
I did think Nigel Mansell but didn't he have a big one in F3 which hurt his back, and later while testing a Williams in 1985, so that counts him out.
In the past i have mentioned this before, probably too many times already, but Ron Tauranac once said that a driver who has a really big accident usually looses about half of a second in lap time afterwards. His case in point was Mike Thackwell who had a huge accident while testing a F2 Ralt Honda which smashed his legs badly, many thought he would never drive again, he did and was still massively quick and impressive, but it makes one wonder what he would have been like without the accident. Johnny Herbert was another, still a fantastic driver after his terrible accident at Brands Hatch, but not quite the same as before.
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Post by Carl on Sept 11, 2019 16:23:47 GMT
That is a really interesting one Mikael. I suppose it also depends on what degree of big "shunt" we are referring to, however when one thinks about it any accident in motor sport is a big one. I have been thinking hard but as it stands cannot think of anyone who has not had a fairly big accident at some time or other. I believe that some used to qualify the accident as to whether or not the driver sustained injury. I don't think that Jim Clark ever drew blood in an accident other than when struck in the face on one occasion, although he did have two big car wrecking accidents in non championship races at Aintree in 1964 and Brands Hatch in 1965, but was otherwise unscathed. We all know that Gilles stepped out of a few, but like Jim I don't think he was hurt in any serious way following these. Ayrton had a big one in a McLaren one year, can't recall when exactly, but it was a heavy. Ronnie had a huge one in F3 at Montlhéry driving the prototype March which flipped and caught fire in which he luckily escaped with some burns. I did think Nigel Mansell but didn't he have a big one in F3 which hurt his back, and later while testing a Williams in 1985, so that counts him out. In the past i have mentioned this before, probably too many times already, but Ron Tauranac once said that a driver who has a really big accident usually looses about half of a second in lap time afterwards. His case in point was Mike Thackwell who had a huge accident while testing a F2 Ralt Honda which smashed his legs badly, many thought he would never drive again, he did and was still massively quick and impressive, but it makes one wonder what he would have been like without the accident. Johnny Herbert was another, still a fantastic driver after his terrible accident at Brands Hatch, but not quite the same as before. This was true with Dan Gurney. After complete brake failure caused a tragic accident that killed a spectator in 1960, he never again completely trusted his brakes. He simply would not risk the same happening again, although he knew full well it cost him some time.
Quoted from Wikipedia:
"At the Dutch Grand Prix, at Zandvoort, a brake system failure on the BRM caused the most serious accident of his career, breaking his arm, killing a young spectator and instilling in him a longstanding distrust of engineers. The accident also caused him to make a change in his driving style that later paid dividends: his tendency to use his brakes more sparingly than his rivals meant that they lasted longer, especially in endurance races. Gurney was known to give the brake pedal a reassuring tap just before hard application — a habit he himself jokingly referred to as "the chicken-shit school of braking." |
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Post by charleselan on Sept 11, 2019 18:05:27 GMT
That is a really interesting one Mikael. I suppose it also depends on what degree of big "shunt" we are referring to, however when one thinks about it any accident in motor sport is a big one. I have been thinking hard but as it stands cannot think of anyone who has not had a fairly big accident at some time or other. I believe that some used to qualify the accident as to whether or not the driver sustained injury. I don't think that Jim Clark ever drew blood in an accident other than when struck in the face on one occasion, although he did have two big car wrecking accidents in non championship races at Aintree in 1964 and Brands Hatch in 1965, but was otherwise unscathed. We all know that Gilles stepped out of a few, but like Jim I don't think he was hurt in any serious way following these. Ayrton had a big one in a McLaren one year, can't recall when exactly, but it was a heavy. Ronnie had a huge one in F3 at Montlhéry driving the prototype March which flipped and caught fire in which he luckily escaped with some burns. I did think Nigel Mansell but didn't he have a big one in F3 which hurt his back, and later while testing a Williams in 1985, so that counts him out. In the past i have mentioned this before, probably too many times already, but Ron Tauranac once said that a driver who has a really big accident usually looses about half of a second in lap time afterwards. His case in point was Mike Thackwell who had a huge accident while testing a F2 Ralt Honda which smashed his legs badly, many thought he would never drive again, he did and was still massively quick and impressive, but it makes one wonder what he would have been like without the accident. Johnny Herbert was another, still a fantastic driver after his terrible accident at Brands Hatch, but not quite the same as before. This was true with Dan Gurney. After complete brake failure caused a tragic accident that killed a spectator in 1960, he never again completely trusted his brakes. He simply would not risk the same happening again, although he knew full well it cost him some time.
Quoted from Wikipedia:
"At the Dutch Grand Prix, at Zandvoort, a brake system failure on the BRM caused the most serious accident of his career, breaking his arm, killing a young spectator and instilling in him a longstanding distrust of engineers. The accident also caused him to make a change in his driving style that later paid dividends: his tendency to use his brakes more sparingly than his rivals meant that they lasted longer, especially in endurance races. Gurney was known to give the brake pedal a reassuring tap just before hard application — a habit he himself jokingly referred to as "the chicken-shit school of braking." Carl, I was going to refer to that accident of Dan's myself believe it or not, he was very upset by what had occurred with the young child being killed. The BRM P48 was a good looking car in my opinion, the first rear engined car from the Bourne team. It featured the very unpopular single rear disc brake mounted behind the gearbox which i think was referred to as the "Cheese or Bacon Slicer". René will recall the excellent resin slot car body shell produced by a French chap a few years ago, it was exquisite and i wish i had purchased one at the time, just to have owned one. As I write this could it be that Bruce McLaren might not have had a big accident until the fatal one that sadly took him from us. John Charles |
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Post by Carl on Sept 12, 2019 4:43:53 GMT
This was true with Dan Gurney. After complete brake failure caused a tragic accident that killed a spectator in 1960, he never again completely trusted his brakes. He simply would not risk the same happening again, although he knew full well it cost him some time.
Quoted from Wikipedia:
"At the Dutch Grand Prix, at Zandvoort, a brake system failure on the BRM caused the most serious accident of his career, breaking his arm, killing a young spectator and instilling in him a longstanding distrust of engineers. The accident also caused him to make a change in his driving style that later paid dividends: his tendency to use his brakes more sparingly than his rivals meant that they lasted longer, especially in endurance races. Gurney was known to give the brake pedal a reassuring tap just before hard application — a habit he himself jokingly referred to as "the chicken-shit school of braking." Carl, I was going to refer to that accident of Dan's myself believe it or not, he was very upset by what had occurred with the young child being killed. The BRM P48 was a good looking car in my opinion, the first rear engined car from the Bourne team. It featured the very unpopular single rear disc brake mounted behind the gearbox which i think was referred to as the "Cheese or Bacon Slicer". René will recall the excellent resin slot car body shell produced by a French chap a few years ago, it was exquisite and i wish i had purchased one at the time, just to have owned one. As I write this could it be that Bruce McLaren might not have had a big accident until the fatal one that sadly took him from us. John Charles John Charles, Despite the global turmoil surrounding truth, my prices for belief have held steady and your balance is more than enough to cover your assertion, which of course I believe...  And I think you're right about Bruce McLaren, who should still be with us, hale and hearty in his early eighties. That accident was especially cruel. Like McLaren, Dan Gurney was an unusually decent and thoughtful man. In this photograph taken as he walked away from the accident consumed by shock and anger, his thoughts were almost certainly centered on the young spectator who had been killed, with some anger left over for BRM brake system engineers. -Carl
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Post by mikael on Sept 12, 2019 5:08:41 GMT
JC,
very interesting thoughts. A counterexample / exception to the half a second rule-of-thumb (the exception that proves the rule?) might perhaps be Mika Hakkinen. After his big accident in the last race of '95 in Adelaide he came back quite strong in '96. And then, in the years that followed, he went from strength to strength.
M.
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Post by charleselan on Sept 12, 2019 10:59:28 GMT
Carl, I was going to refer to that accident of Dan's myself believe it or not, he was very upset by what had occurred with the young child being killed. The BRM P48 was a good looking car in my opinion, the first rear engined car from the Bourne team. It featured the very unpopular single rear disc brake mounted behind the gearbox which i think was referred to as the "Cheese or Bacon Slicer". René will recall the excellent resin slot car body shell produced by a French chap a few years ago, it was exquisite and i wish i had purchased one at the time, just to have owned one. As I write this could it be that Bruce McLaren might not have had a big accident until the fatal one that sadly took him from us. John Charles John Charles, Despite the global turmoil surrounding truth, my prices for belief have held steady and your balance is more than enough to cover your assertion, which of course I believe... And I think you're right about Bruce McLaren, who should still be with us, hale and hearty in his early eighties. That accident was especially cruel. Like McLaren, Dan Gurney was an unusually decent and thoughtful man. In this photograph taken as he walked away from the accident consumed by shock and anger, his thoughts were almost certainly centered on the young spectator who had been killed, with some anger left over for BRM brake system engineers. -Carl
Carl, Bruce McLaren was a terrible loss and so needless if I understand correctly that it was a result of the rear bodywork on the Can Am car becoming detached due to the excessive aerodynamic forces being generated. I have thought long and hard and cannot for the life of me recall him ever having a big accident prior to that. Mind you he was a stickler for detail and one always felt his cars were well prepared plus the fact that he also came across as a driver that kept something in reserve. Dan Gurney only drove for BRM for one season (1960) and then moved to Porsche in 1961, which may well have been inspired by the thought that they made strong and sturdy cars. Up until 1961 BRM cars always had a reputation of being problematic and prone to breakages, however from 1961 onwards that all seemed to change and they became sound and reliable race cars. John Charles |
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Post by charleselan on Sept 12, 2019 11:16:56 GMT
JC, very interesting thoughts. A counterexample / exception to the half a second rule-of-thumb (the exception that proves the rule?) might perhaps be Mika Hakkinen. After his big accident in the last race of '95 in Adelaide he came back quite strong in '96. And then, in the years that followed, he went from strength to strength. M. M. A very good point . Some years back I read a very good article about Mika Hakkinen's first drive in a F1 car after that accident in 1995. Mika said that he was filled with trepidation and wasn't sure if he wanted to race again. If I remember correctly he then set out in the car and it felt bad, nothing seemed right. He came back into the pits and still felt unconvinced, he then ventured out again and it was like a light switch and been flicked over, it all came back and he just went faster and faster. For him that was it, he was back. I was fortunate enough to have been around covering most British motor sport series at the time Mika began to emerge, First of all in Formula Vauxhall-Lotus and then on to Formula Three. He was an outstanding driver and his second season in F3 driving Dick Bennetts West Surrey Ralt was one of the best years i have seen in the UK. The duel all season with Mika Salo was very reminiscent to the 1968/9 F3 seasons between Ronnie Peterson and Reine Wisell, and their respective careers followed suit. Ronnie and Mika Hakkinen going on to be all time greats, and Reine and Mika Salo never attaining those heights. Just a thought, maybe Mika did loose half a second in lap speed after the accident and that due to being so good he was still mighty. Both Johnny Herbert and David Coulthard have stated that they feel Mika was faster; more precise and accurate than Michael Schumacher. JC |
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Post by René on Sept 13, 2019 18:37:42 GMT
René will recall the excellent resin slot car body shell produced by a French chap a few years ago, it was exquisite and i wish i had purchased one at the time, just to have owned one. I guess you mean this guy Pascal who posted on the f-one-thirty-two forum. He also made the Ferrari 246P. Both beautiful models. Unfortunately Pascal passed away a few years back. The BRM  And the Ferrari  |
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Post by René on Sept 13, 2019 18:43:08 GMT
Just a thought, maybe Mika did loose half a second in lap speed after the accident and that due to being so good he was still mighty. Both Johnny Herbert and David Coulthard have stated that they feel Mika was faster; more precise and accurate than Michael Schumacher. JC Michael himself rated Mika as his strongest opponent, the only one who was really on his level. And whatever you think of Michael, he was an exceptional good driver. And so was Mika.  |
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Post by René on Sept 13, 2019 19:05:55 GMT
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Post by chrisb on Sept 13, 2019 20:43:05 GMT
that is an interesting viewpoint Rene, I always listen to Juan Pablo, one of my favourite racers from that era, and someone who could mix it with anyone, it does make me wonder if I am criticising Seb, or just wondering why he can't adapt his style to suit the car as opposed to the other way around, as I have said before he is a great driver but sadly it appears to be within in a narrow technical window,
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Post by robmarsh on Sept 14, 2019 6:24:53 GMT
Nobody ever denied Keke Rosberg's ability to drive a Formula 1 car very fast but yet when he went to Mclaren in 1986 he was not so good until they tried something technically different on his car and lo the speed was back.
I can't believe that Vettel would continously make those mistakes unless there is something wrong with the car compared to his style of driving. I think the current cars are very difficult to correct once they exceed their limits. You just have to look at how quickly they spin once a certain angle is reached. These days a few hundredths difference in performance has a huge impact on the end result. It must be incredibly difficult to drive competitively and with confidence with a car that won't do as you want or expect it to, especially against the likes of Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc et al.
Add the added stress of driving for Ferrari and the fact that two championships have slipped away and it's no wonder your performance may drop off. How many mistakes would the Mercedes drivers have made if their cars did not have such a performance advantage that they have operated well within the cars limits. It is only now that Mercedes are really getting pushed to their limits regularly and cracks are appearing.
What I find so sad is the glee that many "fans" find in Vettel's current lack of form. The guy could not have possibly done anything to personally hurt or effect these people yet their joy at his plight is malicious in the extreme. So sad.
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