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Post by charleselan on Nov 18, 2018 17:06:17 GMT
In mitigation Bill, I do remember that Carlos Jnr often did not have the latest updates that Nico had which must have been a bit of a handicap at times. I hope he can wring something out of Chubby Brown's orange barge next year, but I am not holding my breath on the ability of the car from Woking. Great avatar by the way, always liked Johnny as a driver, not so much as a S*YF1 pundit . Thanks for the compliment re avatar. I think he's terrible on Sky - very little of any insight to say - but I love the photos of him in his racing helmet. I remember his eyes in a helmet always told a very different story to the 'cheeky chappy' persona we all had to endure when he wasn't in the car. His eyes when he was in business mode made him look like he was ready to kill somebody. I always admired his driving and I like this change of mode - all of the very good drivers like him have the mode change. Very intense eyes when in racing mode. Up until that terrible F3000 accident at Brands Hatch Johnny was one of the most outstanding drivers I have seen in the lower formula's. Goodness knows how much pace that accident cost him but he was still pretty handy afterwards, enough to worry Schumacher when he first stepped into a Benetton, and then the former ski instructor made certain that he was compromised thereafter. As a pundit on UK S*YF1he is pretty poor sadly, far too much of "Lewis this and Lewis that" and not enough of the nitty gritty.
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 18, 2018 18:01:21 GMT
I always admired Johnny Herbert as a race driver, especially coming back from that horrendous crash as he did. I thought he got a raw deal from face ache Briatore though.
When I first him on TV as a co presenter I found him irritating but strangely enough I now enjoy him and his sense of joy and fun. Maybe it is what keeps him going but I like his light hearted approach. There are enough serious guys around to offset him.
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Post by Carl on Nov 19, 2018 7:21:07 GMT
Thanks for the compliment re avatar. I think he's terrible on Sky - very little of any insight to say - but I love the photos of him in his racing helmet. I remember his eyes in a helmet always told a very different story to the 'cheeky chappy' persona we all had to endure when he wasn't in the car. His eyes when he was in business mode made him look like he was ready to kill somebody. I always admired his driving and I like this change of mode - all of the very good drivers like him have the mode change. Very intense eyes when in racing mode. Up until that terrible F3000 accident at Brands Hatch Johnny was one of the most outstanding drivers I have seen in the lower formula's. Goodness knows how much pace that accident cost him but he was still pretty handy afterwards, enough to worry Schumacher when he first stepped into a Benetton, and then the former ski instructor made certain that he was compromised thereafter. As a pundit on UK S*YF1he is pretty poor sadly, far too much of "Lewis this and Lewis that" and not enough of the nitty gritty. Gentlemen, I've noticed the same intense expression on drivers leaving the paddock for serious laps. One I remember clearly was David Hobbs in his Lola T310 at Riverside in 1972. He had a cold, murderous stare as he backed out of his garage to qualify, a ferocity likely magnified by the unwieldiness of his car, a disappointing Eric Broadley design poor Hobbs must earlier have eagerly anticipated.
I suspect the level of concentration required varies depending on the comfort levels. When their car was ideal and the rhythms of corners ingrained, masters like Moss and Clark could locate and casually wave to friends. I imagine fierce expressions are common beforehand, when comfortable rhythms are far from assured.
The only two excellent staff regulars on Sky are Martin Brundle and Ted Kravitz. If David Croft had any sense, he couldn't look either one in the eyes.
Cheers, Carl
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Post by chrisb on Nov 19, 2018 8:11:34 GMT
prior to that awful accident at Brands, Johnny was rated as the next best thing on 4 wheels, he certainly looked the part and his focus was intense.
That day at Brands I was on the pit straight and Johnny and Martin had cleared off and everyone else was being held up by Foitek, especially Roberto Moreno who was being blocked dreadfully, who then made a lunge with the inevitable consequence. Causing the race to be stopped. What really got to me that day was that for the organisers not to do anything about Foitek who caused the first crash and then of course caused the second. It was dreadful and Martin scored a hollow victory and as we know Johnny was never the same again.
I met Johnny at Silverstone in 1995 and saw his interactions with Michael, it was so clear what was going on and who was number one, it really stuck in my throat how Johnny was treated. I do think Johnny needs a 'freer' atmosphere to thrive in and sxy isn't it.
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Post by charleselan on Nov 19, 2018 13:22:53 GMT
prior to that awful accident at Brands, Johnny was rated as the next best thing on 4 wheels, he certainly looked the part and his focus was intense. That day at Brands I was on the pit straight and Johnny and Martin had cleared off and everyone else was being held up by Foitek, especially Roberto Moreno who was being blocked dreadfully, who then made a lunge with the inevitable consequence. Causing the race to be stopped. What really got to me that day was that for the organisers not to do anything about Foitek who caused the first crash and then of course caused the second. It was dreadful and Martin scored a hollow victory and as we know Johnny was never the same again. I met Johnny at Silverstone in 1995 and saw his interactions with Michael, it was so clear what was going on and who was number one, it really stuck in my throat how Johnny was treated. I do think Johnny needs a 'freer' atmosphere to thrive in and sxy isn't it. Foitek was a complete menace on the race track and should never have been allowed near a top level international meeting. I remember seeing him in pre-qualifying at Silverstone for the British GP not long after that Brands incident. I think he was driving a EuroBrun which he spun more or less the moment he came out of the pits, and needless to say he did not qualify. That Brands Hatch F3000 accident was an absolute tragedy for I am certain that Johnny would have been a World Champion otherwise. He was outstanding in Formula Ford, as he was in F3. I have a clear memory of him driving Eddie Jordan's Reynard in F3 at Thruxton where for reasons that escape me he ended up at the back of the field but actually drove through to win against a very high level of opposition including Eddie Irvine in a West Surrey Ralt. Irvine didn't liked that at all and always professed that Herbert had better equipment than him, which was a sad joke. Johnny moved up to F3000 the following year with Jordan and won the first two races, the one at Silverstone was masterful. The courage and grit he showed after the accident was also unbelievable, and to get treated as he did by that clown at Benetton was disgusting. It always amuses me that the first two occasions he drove the Benetton, one in testing at Estoril and the other Argentina (or was it Brazil) he frightened the life out of Schumacher. After that Schumacher refused to allow him to see his data, but had full sight of Johnny's. I still believe that the pre accident Herbert would have pasted Michael.
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Post by René on Nov 19, 2018 13:25:16 GMT
René when I said that at the beginning of the century the Honda effort was driven by the marketing team it meant a different culture and approach to the racing team. In the mid 80s to 90s the Honda engineers drove the research and development and where the Honda budget went. They were purely focused on winning and all the money went on engineering solutions and improvements. I think in some seasons they produced five or six variants of the engine, each one being better than the previous iteration. They also produced a turbo, a v10 and a v12 and won with all of them. Under the marketing team direction the money was not just spent on engineering solutions but on things like earth life etc that the engineers would call a waste of money. The marketing team did not have the same winning ethos as the engineers with regard to engineering spend and Honda is like any big corporation, you don't spend money on things you don't have budget for. I see what you mean now Rob and hope you're right. I remember the earth life car, it was useless on all accounts! Bad idea, bad car. Focussing on the engine/pu now and being teamed up with a first class manufacturer (which they thought they had with McLaren) should lead to success.
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Post by charleselan on Nov 19, 2018 16:27:58 GMT
With regard to the Honda discussion, that is a difficult one isn't it. Some very good points and observations above about Honda and its history with F1.
Their success has been pretty mixed to say the least, sometimes dominant and others bit players. In bike racing they have usually been at the top, and so they should as they are one of the biggest motorcycle manufacturers. I have always liked Honda motorcycles and have, and do own one, beautifully made machines that really last. They set a standard for quality with their bikes that the other Japanese manufacturers struggled to match through the 1980/90's, however it was good to see Yamaha in particular begin to raise their game with quality of parts etc.
In F1 Honda were just getting there in 1965 with that fabulous little 12 cylinder car which won the last GP of that formula, however they could not get anywhere near in the 3 litre that followed, even with John Surtees on board. Towards the end of the 1980's turbo era they were dominant, but one has to ask who did they actually have to beat. Although Renault pioneered the 1.5 litre turbo idea they never quite succeeded; TAG Porsche after early success did not develop further, and Ferrari were doing what they were good at, in never quite getting it right.
The 3.5 V10 was good for a while, until Renault finally came good with their V10, and Honda then decided to take them on with a V12 which was a great motor; but Newey's Williams mated to the Renault V10 was just a bit too strong, and they quite the scene.
Other than Mugen keeping the V10 going and the abysmal efforts in the 00's that is it. Honda came into this new era of F1 at a huge disadvantage, being late to start the program and the current rules limiting what really was needed, many; many miles of testing and development. They have the capacity to do the job, of there can be no doubt, and maybe tying up with the fizzy drink company will unlock the door.
To be honest I think Honda have done quite well this past year considering they are running with a lower order team, and one whose chassis/aero development has stagnated due to their somewhat highly regarded designer being on gardening leave. I sincerely hope that both Honda and Renault can bridge the gap to MB and Ferrari next season, the series badly needs a competitive and exciting championship even if it is now behind a pay wall in most countries.
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Post by chrisb on Nov 19, 2018 17:01:04 GMT
JC, Johnny was rated higher than Michael when they first signed, and to get a points finish in his first race when he could barely walk was a heroic attempt, and then get the treatment he got even 'nobbled' as he was, just reinforces our beliefs. I was so glad when he did win a few GP's - it was the least he deserved. But Foitek, words failed me.
Honda is a bit enigmatic isn't it? brilliant standards - or so I thought - on motorbikes - but talking to an engineer on Saturday - ok he is a Suzuki engineer- but we were talking about under-rated road bikes and I was advocating the CBF1000 as a great step-up to a 1ltr class and he agreed with me 'it was' but now it is made elsewhere he was saying that the standards were not quite as they once were, as I am now a Triumph man, although where they are now built kinda rankles as it sort of defeats the object so, maybe a KTM looms next year?
I just think that we are all desperate for another manufacturer to take on Mercedes and beat them.
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Post by charleselan on Nov 19, 2018 17:19:41 GMT
Chris,
Are you telling me that Triumph motorcycles are no longer built in the UK? I did not know that fact, shocking to learn if so.
KTM's are great bikes and a magnificent company, and they always succeed in what they set out to do. I have never owned one myself but would seriously consider it if I was in the market.
Am I also to understand that some Honda motorcycles are no longer built in Japan, some other far eastern country no doubt with cheaper labour costs.
My cousin Chris (same name as you) visited us here in Sept 2017 and he is a passionate biker, also like you and rides all over Europe. He had a brand new Honda Africa Twin which he thought was very good, I also liked it very much as it looked slightly less bulky than my own BMW R1200GS, but I still like the boxer BMW, so sweet handling.
John
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Post by chrisb on Nov 20, 2018 8:30:02 GMT
sad but true John and it is terribly annoying, yes now built in the Far-East and assembled here, a number of Triumph owners are very unhappy about that decision but Triumph are not a great company to have a conversation with about their motives. In fact, I am seriously questioning getting another Triumph or not, really upset about this, and their exhaust systems on most of the newer bikes is just hideous.
KTM is really starting to grow on me - I have two biker mates who have them and the grunt is incredible.
The CBF's, as far as I know, are built in Italy, but yes outsourcing is prevalent now,
Ridden with two guys who have African Twins, both very good riders, the handling is very good but gets a bit breathless especially up against anything with serious power. The GS's are still the most popular bike I see on tours, and I can understand why, they are quick, they handle and they can cope with virtually anything. The Tiger Explorer 1200 is a much better-looking bike IMHO but prone to be top-heavy, but they are popular too.
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Post by charleselan on Nov 20, 2018 13:58:48 GMT
sad but true John and it is terribly annoying, yes now built in the Far-East and assembled here, a number of Triumph owners are very unhappy about that decision but Triumph are not a great company to have a conversation with about their motives. In fact, I am seriously questioning getting another Triumph or not, really upset about this, and their exhaust systems on most of the newer bikes is just hideous. KTM is really starting to grow on me - I have two biker mates who have them and the grunt is incredible. The CBF's, as far as I know, are built in Italy, but yes outsourcing is prevalent now, Ridden with two guys who have African Twins, both very good riders, the handling is very good but gets a bit breathless especially up against anything with serious power. The GS's are still the most popular bike I see on tours, and I can understand why, they are quick, they handle and they can cope with virtually anything. The Tiger Explorer 1200 is a much better-looking bike IMHO but prone to be top-heavy, but they are popular too. Hell's teeth Chris, I had no idea that Triumph had moved production to the far east, that for me just about sums up the problems of today. I must say that I am not really a fan of the current Triumph organisation. I did back in the late 90's apply for a job there as a Press Officer, but the interview technique employed was absolute rubbish, and had no bearing on such a position. I have heard that the Africa Twin was a bit short of top end grunt, my cousin Chris did not mention that however which is a surprise as he has had everything from Fireblades etc. I think you are correct about KTM's, they have some poke and are really great machines. The BMW GS is a remarkable machine and so versatile, amazing to see what some guys can do on such a huge thing off road. I also love the shaft drive, no worries about chains etc. With regard to Honda farming out production of its bikes from Japan; am I correct in thinking that the latest VFR's are built in the States?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2018 17:19:35 GMT
I always admired Johnny Herbert as a race driver, especially coming back from that horrendous crash as he did. I thought he got a raw deal from face ache Briatore though. When I first him on TV as a co presenter I found him irritating but strangely enough I now enjoy him and his sense of joy and fun. Maybe it is what keeps him going but I like his light hearted approach. There are enough serious guys around to offset him. Agreed, I was being a bit harsh on him re Sky. Occasionally he is genuinely amusing. I guess I just wish he gave more insights from his former driver perspective.
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Post by René on Nov 20, 2018 18:04:32 GMT
I always admired Johnny Herbert as a race driver, especially coming back from that horrendous crash as he did. I thought he got a raw deal from face ache Briatore though. When I first him on TV as a co presenter I found him irritating but strangely enough I now enjoy him and his sense of joy and fun. Maybe it is what keeps him going but I like his light hearted approach. There are enough serious guys around to offset him. Agreed, I was being a bit harsh on him re Sky. Occasionally he is genuinely amusing. I guess I just wish he gave more insights from his former driver perspective. Always liked Johnny and I was so happy for him when he won Le Mans in 1991. My only visit to the la Sarthe circuit and a great memory it is! Mazda, Johnny, no one expected that.
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Post by charleselan on Nov 20, 2018 18:12:12 GMT
Agreed, I was being a bit harsh on him re Sky. Occasionally he is genuinely amusing. I guess I just wish he gave more insights from his former driver perspective. Always liked Johnny and I was so happy for him when he won Le Mans in 1991. My only visit to the la Sarthe circuit and a great memory it is! Mazda, Johnny, no one expected that. I was there that year René doing Press Photography for various Swedish; Italian and American magazines. It was truly memorable and one of my greatest motor sport moments with Johnny and Mazda winning. The car was stunning in the dayglo orange and green "Charge" livery, and what a sound. I believe it was a Japanese manufacturers first win at Le Mans also, and could not have happened to a more deserving team. I have a huge amount of photos stashed away, hopefully this winter I will get to delve into my boxed archive .
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Post by René on Nov 20, 2018 18:25:18 GMT
Always liked Johnny and I was so happy for him when he won Le Mans in 1991. My only visit to the la Sarthe circuit and a great memory it is! Mazda, Johnny, no one expected that. I was there that year René doing Press Photography for various Swedish; Italian and American magazines. It was truly memorable and one of my greatest motor sport moments with Johnny and Mazda winning. The car was stunning in the dayglo orange and green "Charge" livery, and what a sound. I believe it was a Japanese manufacturers first win at Le Mans also, and could not have happened to a more deserving team. I have a huge amount of photos stashed away, hopefully this winter I will get to delve into my boxed archive . JC, that was a great race and I do remember the sound of that Mazda! What a beast! Quite a few races already that we both attended, funny idea. And regarding those photos, you need to dig them up. I am sure the other Racers at our Table agree with me!
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