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Post by René on Nov 11, 2018 11:17:44 GMT
No more semantic 'Anglo-Saxon' discussions on this forum please! No problem Rene, but don't take it badly when I suggest that Verstappen already has a 'home GP', at Spa 😏 I won't Jim and you're right, Spa is almost a home race for Max. But don't forget 'Schumi' had three home races; two in Germany and Spa. Spa was flooded with Germans in the early 90's when Michael broke through. Maybe not as recognizeable as the Dutch in orange but they were there. Well, come to think of it, you could recognize most of them by their beer belly!
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Post by charleselan on Nov 11, 2018 12:02:17 GMT
It is quite laughable that with so much so called emphasis being placed on road car relevance, the tyres are being used as a method to make the show more interesting, and have nothing to do with advancement of that particular technology.
Pirelli's part in this is somewhat akin to that of Renault and Honda, where weekend in and out they get a pasting on a platform of media coverage. What commercial reasoning sits behind this? Everywhere on most sites and social media forums you can see comments about the dire standard of Pirelli's product, makes you think does it not.
Another thought, or muse, surely only allowing one make of tyre manufacturer in a given formula is to all intent and purpose a restrictive practice. Made even more so by the very fact that the tyre manufacturer has to pay for the very privilege.
Just think that back in the day teams had to pay for the tyres they used from a respective supplier.
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Post by Carl on Nov 12, 2018 1:37:03 GMT
While I'm pleased that everyone has waited for me, when first I tend to present a seriously flawed analysis... The Brazilian Grand Prix was closely fought down to midfield, with passing for position, backmarkers to negotiate, and pitstop and tyre strategy that was more interesting than usual. Rain threatened but never arrived. At one time, the first six were all within 10 seconds of the leader and in with a chance. It was cool to see Emerson Fittipaldi and Rubens Barrichello in the Mercedes control center, both consummate gentlemen. Tyres were a major factor, both Red Bulls happy lap after lap with the softest compound while Mercedes and Ferrari struggled. Max Verstappen led near the end with a comfortable margin over second place when Esteban Ocon foolishly tried to unlap himself at Turn 2. Both cars spun, handing the lead and victory to Hamilton. I think both drivers were impetuous, although Ocon should never have challenged the race leader where he did and was mostly to blame and rightly penalized. But Max could have preserved victory by being cautious. There was no reason for that collision, no reason for Ocon to challenge the leader at that spot and every reason for Verstappen to play it safe and preserve his win. The quote of the weekend was Martin Brundle's caustic remark to David Croft during Q2: "I'm focusing on lap times while you amuse yourself with the sky." Brilliant!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2018 8:38:36 GMT
While many F1 sites are focusing on side show issues, like Mercedes clinching their fifth WCC, Hamilton's 72nd GP win, Verstappen turning in on Ocon, Vettel rolling backwards to finish 6th from the front row of the grid, etc etc, here in NZ we're focused on the REAL story - Hartley losing his cool because Gasley was holding him up, and out of the points www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12158797What is it with these French drivers? Causing otherwise mild mannered competitors to lose their cool. Its an outrage!!!!
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Post by chrisb on Nov 12, 2018 8:53:21 GMT
love that quote Carl, aww isn't it such a shame that Martin is so wasted on sxy - I am more than happy to pay for a product provided I feel it is worthy of my 'investment' such as MotoGP, which does have a tendency to mess up my weekends but wow is it great, but under no circumstances would I purchase sxy or BT come to that, obstinate? me? surely not?
I listened to the entire race on BBC radio and for a change it was less hysterical and more objective, actually quite amusing in places, not quite on a par with the era of watching the cricket on the Beeb and listening to it on the radio, but better than previously, Jolyon may not have made it in F1, whereas he was so dominant in F2 and lower formulee, a puzzle to me, is actually quite good as a co-commentator, dry and insightful, certainly much better than DC on script, whereas DC off script is pretty good.
Max! well another driver for me to ponder, what a driver! drove really well - the BBC were quite astute to how Max overtook, as was Max, but Ocon, WTH was he doing? stunned and interesting that the commentator went back to 2001 [?] when Max's Dad took out Juan Pablo, and the 'coincidence' - gosh conspiracy theories abound, it was just stupid of Ocon and I don't know about pushing him I would have chinned him, I was left with a thought, as I felt Seb was strangely subdued and I have no idea why, would Max have been 2018 WDC in a Ferrari? from the vers-crap-em to a real star in one season, impressive, good on Lewis, liked the way you drove, as did Kimi and Riccy, but Bottas and Seb? when it comes onto utub I'll probably see a different race, but on radio it was pretty good,
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 12, 2018 9:34:55 GMT
Max's job was to win the race, Ocon's job was to go as fast as possible on new tyres. Both jobs converged in turn two with the result that neither party met their job descriptions. Ocon had to overtake there, it was the safest for his speed advantage. Max would have lost nothing by backing off and letting him through but unfortunately his arrogance at being the leader and a winner got in the way. Ocon had nowhere to go when Max turned into him. I do not agree with Brundle's assertion that Ocon lunged at Max. He held his line and his speed as he was entitled to do.
I have read many an article in the past where the race leader backed off to avoid having an issue with a back marker. There are also many instances of really talented, super fast drivers tripping over back markers when leading. If you are that good you should realise this, just like us mere mortals have to do when driving on our normal roads and trying to anticipate what other road users may or may not do. This is even more pertinent for those of you who ride motorcycles.
What I did not find acceptable was Max's bully boy behaviour afterwards. As a representative of a team and sponsors that kind of behaviour is unacceptable in a public place. The excuse of adrenalin does not hold water as these guys have enough mental capacity to overcome that. I was not impressed with Piquet for having a go at some young kid at Hockenheim or with Senna when he punched Irvine, even though I still think Irvine has a punch me face. I was not impressed with Mansell for having a go at Senna, nor Schumacher for his attempt on Coulthard. Max let himself down yesterday and has lost some of my respect for him. He does not have a divine right because he was leading and is a winner.
Once again Hamilton was there to pick up the pieces and win in a car that was not at it's best. Kimi may have won had he have been able to get past Bottas and Seb was very ordinary though I think he may have had problems with his car.
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Post by charleselan on Nov 12, 2018 10:49:48 GMT
After a rather frustrating time trying to get a decent "Live stream" of the race from UK S*YF1 I eventually watched the last third of the race via a stream in HD and without commentary which was pure joy, almost like being there myself.
A great deal of comments about the race on many sites, much derogatory towards Esteban Ocon for the attempted overtake. For my part I would tend to side with what Rob has stated; for someone comfortably leading the race to get involved like Verstappen did, just beggars belief. Lewis Hamilton has said that he could not believe what he was seeing unfold in front of him, and that Max should have backed out of the situation as he wasn't fighting for position.
Unfortunately arrogance and machismo reared its ugly head and cost the Dutchman a certain victory. His actions afterwards in pace ferme were unacceptable, although in some ways understandable considering is mind set.
I am not in favour of this blue flag rule anyway, to my way of thinking one of the skills a top driver has is that of overtaking lapped traffic. OK, there have been situations in the past where an obdurate tail ender has blocked the leader, or someone chasing down a leader, for lap after lap which has ruined the race, but that can be resolved by a blue flag situation correctly applied.
Not sure what Sebastian's issues were but Kimi was the strongest Ferrari by far; Kimi's race was ruined by being held up by MB's perennial "wingman", and his own inability to overtake for whatever reason.
It has to be said that Charles Leclerc drove another outstanding race, and the little cameo that played out when Sebastian came up behind him after his pit stop left no one in any doubt as to the young Monegasque's intentions. I just have the feeling that had he been in the Ferrari Charles may well have been fighting for the win, and yes I stand by my prediction the lad will be World Champion next year, if the Ferrari can make a sustained run at matching MB.
Also a big shout out for Brendon Hartley who drove another storming race and beat his highly regarded French team mate yet again, were you watching Toast. Just think how that guy would have gone all season if he had been given the support that the Red Bull favourites had been given.
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Post by mikael on Nov 12, 2018 15:18:49 GMT
In the light of Verstappen's post-race behavior, it's easy to forget the fact that he is, in fact, by now a very experienced GP driver, with very soon four completed seasons and 80 GP starts. Eighty GP starts! That's more than Jim Clark, with 73 starts, was 'allowed', and it's approaching Jackie Stewart's 99. Of course he's still very young and has been kind of forced ahead; nonetheless ...
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Post by René on Nov 12, 2018 15:20:58 GMT
Another entertaining race and a brilliant drive by Max. A shame it ended the way it did. Rob, JC, I understand your reasoning that Max could have been more careful in a situation like this and maybe this will be another learn moment for him. But I do feel it was more Ocon's fault to be honest, a feeling shared by many ex drivers (Webber, Villeneuve, Brundle, Palmer and more).
What was Ocon doing there? Yes, he's allowed to unlap himself but he was actually fighting Max which is ridiculous. He said he passed more cars in that spot but those were McLarens and Wiliams' and that was actually for position. Trying to unlap yourself like that was too risky in my book. I could fully understand why Max was furious. I have always spoken highly of Ocon and I will continue to do so, he's very talented but that was a silly move. Max's behaviour after the race was not correct, I agree but we've seen worse, much worse. But nowadays we have it all on film. Bottas is becoming more like a moving chicane. Don't think this is only team orders, I feel he's punching above his weight. The Ferraris were disappointing, not helped by a sensor problem on Vettel's car that forced him to run different settings. Underwhelming performance by the Scuderia. Kimi was not bad but he could not find a way passed Valtteri which he should have. Charles Leclerc was outstanding again. Forza Charles!
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Post by charleselan on Nov 12, 2018 16:34:12 GMT
I have read the really excellent race report by Mark Hughes on MS and his take on the coming together of Max and Esteban was one of the most balanced views I have seen. A shame that most of the keyboard morons out there in the land of the internet can't read, they might learn something from a scribe such as Mark.
Sadly Mr Hughes great race report is wasted on the majority who comment now on the MS Forum.
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Post by Carl on Nov 12, 2018 16:41:04 GMT
The unanswerable question is whether arrogance provides better racing or worse. Like nitric acid and glycerol, two arrogant drivers at one apex assures an explosive result.
I have less respect for both drivers. Infants interlagos without nannies.
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Post by charleselan on Nov 12, 2018 16:46:33 GMT
Max's job was to win the race, Ocon's job was to go as fast as possible on new tyres. Both jobs converged in turn two with the result that neither party met their job descriptions. Ocon had to overtake there, it was the safest for his speed advantage. Max would have lost nothing by backing off and letting him through but unfortunately his arrogance at being the leader and a winner got in the way. Ocon had nowhere to go when Max turned into him. I do not agree with Brundle's assertion that Ocon lunged at Max. He held his line and his speed as he was entitled to do. I have read many an article in the past where the race leader backed off to avoid having an issue with a back marker. There are also many instances of really talented, super fast drivers tripping over back markers when leading. If you are that good you should realise this, just like us mere mortals have to do when driving on our normal roads and trying to anticipate what other road users may or may not do. This is even more pertinent for those of you who ride motorcycles. What I did not find acceptable was Max's bully boy behaviour afterwards. As a representative of a team and sponsors that kind of behaviour is unacceptable in a public place. The excuse of adrenalin does not hold water as these guys have enough mental capacity to overcome that. I was not impressed with Piquet for having a go at some young kid at Hockenheim or with Senna when he punched Irvine, even though I still think Irvine has a punch me face. I was not impressed with Mansell for having a go at Senna, nor Schumacher for his attempt on Coulthard. Max let himself down yesterday and has lost some of my respect for him. He does not have a divine right because he was leading and is a winner. Once again Hamilton was there to pick up the pieces and win in a car that was not at it's best. Kimi may have won had he have been able to get past Bottas and Seb was very ordinary though I think he may have had problems with his car. Rob, I don't think it was much of a punch delivered towards Irvine; Eddie said at the time he had been hit harder by his girlfriend. From that moment on Irvine had little regard for Senna, and always "bigged up" Schumacher, mind you he would as he liked playing the "wingman" for all that money he amassed. Nelson's little fracas was pretty pathetic really, who in their right mind would attempt to hit someone still wearing a full face helmet . I know neither of us are real fans of Alan Jones, but he is the sort of guy F1 desperately needs to sort out young Max when in a situation like this, just to remind him his antics in the past have cost other guys race wins. I think Lewis Hamilton came across as pretty cool after the race when he explained to Verstappen what the situation was, Max appeared to have no available response. Cheers JC
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 12, 2018 17:53:00 GMT
Overall the most positive thing I take away from the race and which I forgot to mention earlier, was the drive by Charles Leclerc. He really is impressive and his qualifying lap to get into Q3 was excellent. However, he has now had twenty races in F1 so is quite experienced. I guess gone are the days when a driver may win a race in his first ten Grand Prix. I think the last may have been Hamilton though Seb wasn't that far off. I hope though that Leclerc will win within his first five races with Ferrari.
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Post by chrisb on Nov 12, 2018 19:42:19 GMT
well, another pondering or musing moment for yours truly, according to BBC radio Ocon was totally at fault and was chastised voraciously and of course I accepted that, an oops moment in hindsight, I need to remember to wait until I read Mark Hughes's 'what actually happened' report as it was a very different slant to what I heard, I still haven't watched it so can't get that perspective.
I now also understand Seb's problems so he actually did well to get home, must remember this
Piquet's moment with Salazar was embarrassing and let's face it a bit of a silly thing to do, now, those of you with better memories than mine, Monza, Senna and the Williams collide, was there any subsequent consequence to that coming together?
with regards to the blue flags I am so pleased to be amongst others who share the opinion that these should not exist, one of the brilliances of Senna was his ability to lap backmarkers - even the 'challenging' ones, and that was part of the excitement, one of my all-time-favourite GP's was the 1966 Dutch GP, sadly only a couple of minutes exist on utub, when Jimmy created space between himself and Jack by "some ruthless lapping" and I do believe by ridding ourselves of the blue flag it would have such a positive effect on the racing today
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 9:58:25 GMT
With the near exclusive focus on the Ocon/Verstappen collision, and its aftermath, I haven't seen any discussion of the Sainz/Hulkenberg sideswipe that took place early in the race. To me it looked like Sainz took a mighty swipe at Hulkenberg towards the end of a sustained side by side dice throught the nid section of the lap. That incident seems to have escaped attendtion, and sanction. Did anyone else notice it, and if so, what did you think?
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