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Post by charleselan on Nov 16, 2018 14:46:02 GMT
I do still read some of the features on MS, as some really are worth reading, but forget the comments they are to be ignored if one wishes to retain some form of sanity. The one new feature that caught my eye was written by driving coach Scott Mansell about Charles Leclerc, and is rather good and very insightful into the young mans driving style/technique. It would appear that he has a very different style to Sebastian and that maybe my prediction of Charles becoming next years World champion are not too far fetched. Mansell actually says that he would not be surprised if Leclerc finishes ahead of Vettel by the time they get to Abu Dhabi in 2019 . I am not alone gentlemen. It's an interesting feature and confirming what we all feel that Charles Leclerc is an exceptional talent. I can tell you that I am already a huge fan, even before his Ferrari contract was signed. It's not only his superb driving but his whole appearance and how he expresses himself. I actually prefer him much more than Max to be honest. I also believe he will be a force in the Ferrari from day one and the glory days are not far away now. But I do hope that Sebastian wins the title next year given his sincere Ferrari passion. It would be well deserved and after that it will be Charles's time. But hey, if Charles can't wait than so be it! Forza! René, from someone who has become a lot less able to find himself supporting one of the young new generation I have to admit that I am drawn into supporting Charles. Not only is he an exceptional talent, but like you i find his overall manner and how he conducts himself to be exemplary. He would be an ideal role model for any young kid today, in my opinion. Ferrari's future is bright!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 21:06:02 GMT
What does the round table think? ? Good post Jim, with lots for people to ponder and maybe answer. I read quite a bit elsewhere on matters but these days I tend to skim through things as my interest isn't what it was. However I have gleaned a few snippets here and there that may be relevant. I believe the Red Bulls went so well at Interlagos because they were predominantly better on the tyres than the MB & Ferrari cars, also Hamilton's car was running a motor that was about to expire at any time, he was severely compromised all race. There can be little doubt that in most cases the Newey teams chassis is the best and benefits from running the high rake attitude he pioneered with a shorter wheelbase. With regard to that it appears that next years regulations may well disadvantage the high rake idea, so we will have to see what Mr Newey comes up with. Also Honda will be running a completely new power unit next year which may well turn the tide, however I get the feeling that there will be a lot of "Teddy Throwing" within that team next year with it's new driver pairing. I just cannot see that being harmonious as both Verstappen and Gasly whinge more that a Tory Brexiteer. Interesting to note that Mark Hughes writes that Renault run on a much restricted budget to that of Ferrari and MB, can't see how that one works out personally for the French team. So you run a factory team with a restricted budget when you are more or less in an "arms race", whose going to win that one then? Red Bull certainly seem to produce cars that are easier on tyres, and easier for the drivers to run at a consistently high pace, and also which have the ability to follow and challange other cars. That all paid off nicely for the past two races. I'm a bit skeptical about the talk of the Mercedes p.u's being on the point of blowing up, and think that might be a bit of hyperbole. I guess we'll see at Abu Dhabi - will Merc fit new p.u's, be off the pace, or blow up? I think, none of those options and they'll be back at the front. You're quite right about Red Bull next year, two very high maintenance drivers, and adapting to a new p.u and massivly changed aero regulations - as you say teddy's will be thrown. And if the p.u or aero aren't working out, it won't just be drivers teddy's flying - Horner and Marko will be tossing ted's too. I've been following the Renault budget post on MS. I think they're doing it right. From resuscitating the Lotus Team in 2014, to 4th in the WCC now, with initially a mid pack budget, now with a budget roughly half of the leading three ( 200m Euros, vs 350m to 450m Euros - excluding p.u development!!!!). If they can get themselves to be competitive with the top 3 on that budget, they'll be looking strong when the cost caps come (or when Merc decide they have dominated enough and check out).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 21:59:31 GMT
Jim, a very interesting collection of thoughts, do I think the Honda engine will succeed? I am not sure - history teaches some of us many things, the V12 1.5 ltr transverse engine was magical in its concept and was just getting there in 1965 when the formula changed, the 3ltr V12 was not a success and the water cooled V8 interesting but tragic. Then we had great successes in the 80's and 90's and then another hiatus, but according to MotorSport Honda are investing greatly in this unit and given the brilliance of some of their staff I would suggest that this partnership may bear fruit. So in a long-winded response, yes I do think RB will take it to Mercedes and Ferrari and expect Max to be fighting for the WDC next year, it would be brilliant if Renault were there as well Long winded - I'll show you long winded! ;-) I'm a bit conflicted on this one, I've been a fan of Honda's engineering, and particularly its engines, for decades. Inspired by the great LJK Setright, who used to laud their work in CAR magazine in the 70's 80's and early 90's. So I fully expected that if any company could develop something as complex as these hybrid p.u's it would be them, so far that challange seems to be beyond them. So far their p.u is still off the pace, and its reliability remains unknown. Over the years we've heard from various sources (including Ross Brawn, and Zak Brown) that Honda are not responsive enough to meet the demands of F1 racing, despite the fact they can still kick arse in MotoGP. We've seen how brutal RBR management are with p.u suppliers, so my guess is that 2019 is going to be a very difficult season for RBR. Not least because there is a big change to the aero regulations for next year, and as we've seen it can take RBR a couple of shots to get on top of those changes too.
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Post by Carl on Nov 16, 2018 23:05:36 GMT
Jim, a very interesting collection of thoughts, do I think the Honda engine will succeed? I am not sure - history teaches some of us many things, the V12 1.5 ltr transverse engine was magical in its concept and was just getting there in 1965 when the formula changed, the 3ltr V12 was not a success and the water cooled V8 interesting but tragic. Then we had great successes in the 80's and 90's and then another hiatus, but according to MotorSport Honda are investing greatly in this unit and given the brilliance of some of their staff I would suggest that this partnership may bear fruit. So in a long-winded response, yes I do think RB will take it to Mercedes and Ferrari and expect Max to be fighting for the WDC next year, it would be brilliant if Renault were there as well Long winded - I'll show you long winded! ;-) I'm a bit conflicted on this one, I've been a fan of Honda's engineering, and particularly its engines, for decades. Inspired by the great LJK Setright, who used to laud their work in CAR magazine in the 70's 80's and early 90's. So I fully expected that if any company could develop something as complex as these hybrid p.u's it would be them, so far that challange seems to be beyond them. So far their p.u is still off the pace, and its reliability remains unknown. Over the years we've heard from various sources (including Ross Brawn, and Zak Brown) that Honda are not responsive enough to meet the demands of F1 racing, despite the fact they can still kick arse in MotoGP. We've seen how brutal RBR management are with p.u suppliers, so my guess is that 2019 is going to be a very difficult season for RBR. Chris and Jim, Wasn't Honda's success seriously disadvantaged by McLaren demands that it produce a competitive hybrid engine for 2015 when Honda needed at least another year to be ready? That demand may have permanently affected both the engine program and the relationship.
Honda has also had great recent success in Champ Car [Indy Car] which, along with MotoGP, may bode well for renewed success in Formula One. An argument against could be the malevolence of Herr Hellmutt
It's asking too much, but to have both Honda and Renault competitive would be great for the sport.
-the reluctant optimist
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 0:13:04 GMT
In mitigation Bill, I do remember that Carlos Jnr often did not have the latest updates that Nico had which must have been a bit of a handicap at times. I hope he can wring something out of Chubby Brown's orange barge next year, but I am not holding my breath on the ability of the car from Woking. Great avatar by the way, always liked Johnny as a driver, not so much as a S*YF1 pundit . Thanks for the compliment re avatar. I think he's terrible on Sky - very little of any insight to say - but I love the photos of him in his racing helmet. I remember his eyes in a helmet always told a very different story to the 'cheeky chappy' persona we all had to endure when he wasn't in the car. His eyes when he was in business mode made him look like he was ready to kill somebody. I always admired his driving and I like this change of mode - all of the very good drivers like him have the mode change.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 8:17:58 GMT
Chris and Jim, Wasn't Honda's success seriously disadvantaged by McLaren demands that it produce a competitive hybrid engine for 2015 when Honda needed at least another year to be ready? That demand may have permanently affected both the engine program and the relationship. Honda has also had great recent success in Champ Car [Indy Car] which, along with MotoGP, may bode well for renewed success in Formula One. An argument against could be the malevolence of Herr Hellmutt It's asking too much, but to have both Honda and Renault competitive would be great for the sport.
-the reluctant optimist
Despite the pessimism of my post, I'll go along with your optimism Carl. I agree it would be brilliant if there were four competitive p.u's on the grid, fingers crossed we start seeing that next season
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Post by mikael on Nov 17, 2018 13:43:05 GMT
What does anyone think is the reason for the growing hype about RBR getting the Honda p.u's next year? In the Toro Rosso cars it seems that development has stalled. While the p.u's aren't failing in races, they have used a huge number of elements this season, and are still only at the back of the midfield. I'm skeptical that we are going to find when the Honda p.u is in the back of a Red Bull next year, that it is suddenly on par with Merc and Ferrari. What does the round table think? ?
It's hard to guess what way it will go. But the sales trend for Honda's cars looks good. Certainly their willingness to keep on investing in the F1 project depends critically on this - so that bodes well, at least.
I read on Honda Racing's homepage that their turbo charger supplier IHI is going to allocate a group of engineers specifically for the Honda F1 project too. That's another positive.
But Mercedes might have a whole array of new ideas in stock ...
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Post by Carl on Nov 17, 2018 20:40:45 GMT
What does anyone think is the reason for the growing hype about RBR getting the Honda p.u's next year? In the Toro Rosso cars it seems that development has stalled. While the p.u's aren't failing in races, they have used a huge number of elements this season, and are still only at the back of the midfield. I'm skeptical that we are going to find when the Honda p.u is in the back of a Red Bull next year, that it is suddenly on par with Merc and Ferrari. What does the round table think? ?
It's hard to guess what way it will go. But the sales trend for Honda's cars looks good. Certainly their willingness to keep on investing in the F1 project depends critically on this - so that bodes well, at least.
I read on Honda Racing's homepage that their turbo charger supplier IHI is going to allocate a group of engineers specifically for the Honda F1 project too. That's another positive.
But Mercedes might have a whole array of new ideas in stock ...
"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" - Bernie Ecclestone during his shakedown patter to potential investors. Sadly, because many worthy participants are priced out of the sport, in a general sense this is very true. Of course, money well spent in racing must avoid the deep abyss of Ecclestone's pocket and I suspect the immoral runt is still collecting residuals as part of a severance agreement. Staying out of Formula One may therefore be the smartest investment. - Sir Thomas Gresham
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 22:12:52 GMT
What does anyone think is the reason for the growing hype about RBR getting the Honda p.u's next year? In the Toro Rosso cars it seems that development has stalled. While the p.u's aren't failing in races, they have used a huge number of elements this season, and are still only at the back of the midfield. I'm skeptical that we are going to find when the Honda p.u is in the back of a Red Bull next year, that it is suddenly on par with Merc and Ferrari. What does the round table think? ? It's hard to guess what way it will go. But the sales trend for Honda's cars looks good. Certainly their willingness to keep on investing in the F1 project depends critically on this - so that bodes well, at least. I read on Honda Racing's homepage that their turbo charger supplier IHI is going to allocate a group of engineers specifically for the Honda F1 project too. That's another positive. But Mercedes might have a whole array of new ideas in stock ... The boom in Honda vehicle sales is very impressive - over 5 million this year! So the money should be there to fund sustained development of the F1 p.u. But on track, the continual false dawns keep coming. At Russia, in practice STR ran the Spec 3 engine in practice, and seemed to be quite competitive, in Japan that spec got them their best qualifying of the season (6th and 7th), but they finished outside the points in 11th and 13th. The rest of the season they haven't shown great qualifying or race pace out of the p.u. Meanwhile, Red Bull are increasingly Bullish about how great the Honda p.u is going to be next season. I'd like Honda to be successful, but I don't see where Red Bull's hype is coming from.
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 18, 2018 6:43:41 GMT
I think Torro Rosso have been the sacrificial lamb this season for both Honda and Red Bull. The fact that Honda seem to make a step forward then go backwards or sideways indicates to me that they don't want to show their hand and also that they are testing many different things. It is of no consequence, except to Hartley, as to where Torro Rosso finish this year. They were never going to be amongst the front runners.
I always have respected Honda, even before I owned one, and I am sure that given their history and Japanese culture they will produce a winning engine within the next 2 years. This Honda effort is driven by the engineers. The unsuccessful attempt before Brawn, was driven by the marketing people. There is a major difference between the two.
I think they will win a few races next year.
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Post by mikael on Nov 18, 2018 7:57:38 GMT
I think Torro Rosso have been the sacrificial lamb this season for both Honda and Red Bull. The fact that Honda seem to make a step forward then go backwards or sideways indicates to me that they don't want to show their hand and also that they are testing many different things. Rob, this seems to be a very plausible explanation, that the Toro Rosso cars have acted largely as testing mules this year. On another note, that Honda themselves were the title sponsor for the Japanese GP this year could also be an indicator of their F1 commitment. (Or ... it could just be an indicator that they failed to find another company willing to act as title sponsor ...)
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Post by chrisb on Nov 18, 2018 8:24:07 GMT
Mikael, thank you my friend that is interesting, that is a lot of cars sold,
I keep thinking was it Spirit with Stefan Johansson who were the 'test mules' for the turbo Honda? are we seeing the same scenario with Torro blotto?
Road-going Honda motorbike engines are considered bulletproof and it would do a great deal for motor racing if they were successful in F1, however, I keep coming back to the thought, what are the car manufacturers getting out of this? answers on a postcard?-
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Post by René on Nov 18, 2018 10:33:51 GMT
I think Torro Rosso have been the sacrificial lamb this season for both Honda and Red Bull. The fact that Honda seem to make a step forward then go backwards or sideways indicates to me that they don't want to show their hand and also that they are testing many different things. It is of no consequence, except to Hartley, as to where Torro Rosso finish this year. They were never going to be amongst the front runners. I always have respected Honda, even before I owned one, and I am sure that given their history and Japanese culture they will produce a winning engine within the next 2 years. This Honda effort is driven by the engineers. The unsuccessful attempt before Brawn, was driven by the marketing people. There is a major difference between the two. I think they will win a few races next year. Maybe Rob, maybe. But if they were really not showing their hand, sandbagging if you wish, wouldn't they not at least have shown a little bit more? I mean, getting a few more points on the board would mean millions extra for the small Toro Rosso team and already good publicity for Honda. It doesn't really make sense to create an impression of stagnation. It's interesting what you say about Honda's time in F1 in the 2000's that it was more publicity/marketing driven than pure focus on engineering excellence. I have no idea to be honest but given the vast amount of money that was thrown at F1 in those days, it's hard to imagine they didn't use the best engineers at the time. Being successful in racing and Formula One in particular is not only about engineering excellence and having deep pockets. Just look at Toyota. Never won in F1 and only won Le Mans when there was no competition. Why is that? I don't know but given their recources the Japanese really should have won a lot more in F1 and WEC. They know how to win in MotoGP, they win in Indycar. Is F1 or WEC too complicated? Does it need a different approach or is it just bad luck? More questions than answers I realize. I do hope Honda comes good, would be great for the championship but I am not convinced yet.
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Post by mikael on Nov 18, 2018 12:17:08 GMT
Regarding Honda's last year (2008) of their previous entrance/attempt, the recent Motorsport Magazine podcast featuring Ross Brawn and Nick Fry is very interesting. In the beginning of the interview, Ross Brawn says, "There was a certain belief in Japan that the engine was competitive; and when I arrived and saw the numbers and made the comparisons, it wasn't!" That was a surprise! I had thought (since that time) that Honda essentially had "thrown away" (given away) the 2009 Championship (both the WDC and the WCC) by pulling the plug at the end of that year and selling the outfit to Brawn. But Brawn indicates, apparently, that the Mercedes engine made a great difference. Link to the podcast: www.motorsportmagazine.com/history/f1/ross-brawn-and-nick-fry-brawn-gps-championship
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 18, 2018 15:23:05 GMT
René when I said that at the beginning of the century the Honda effort was driven by the marketing team it meant a different culture and approach to the racing team. In the mid 80s to 90s the Honda engineers drove the research and development and where the Honda budget went. They were purely focused on winning and all the money went on engineering solutions and improvements. I think in some seasons they produced five or six variants of the engine, each one being better than the previous iteration. They also produced a turbo, a v10 and a v12 and won with all of them.
Under the marketing team direction the money was not just spent on engineering solutions but on things like earth life etc that the engineers would call a waste of money. The marketing team did not have the same winning ethos as the engineers with regard to engineering spend and Honda is like any big corporation, you don't spend money on things you don't have budget for.
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