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Post by René on Jul 6, 2018 15:47:39 GMT
JC, your words evoke a clear image of Ronnie Peterson going, pedal to metal, smoothly through a corner. A pleasure to read. The McLaren M23 must have been truly brilliant and well ahead of its time. To imagine that a car introduced for the 1973 season can win the Championship (Driver's Championship) in its fourth season, in 1976, at a time where new technical ideas came thick and fast - that's amazing indeed. Mikael, The M23 was indeed brilliant and well ahead of its time. Before ground effects and turbochargers, new technical ideas arrived at a more steady pace, allowing an extra season or two for brilliant designs and more time for fans to be amazed. The Lotus 49 was still competitive into its fourth season, Jochen Rindt setting a race lap record almost a second faster than Stewart's pole in 1970 and winning at Monaco. That was one hell of a swan song, as was 1976 for the M23. Cheers, Carl
Emerson Fittipaldi in the McLaren M23 at the 1974 German Grand Prix, Nürburgring Nordschleife.
Look at the size of that rear wing and how low it is mounted! ©McLaren Ltd.
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Post by chrisb on Jul 6, 2018 20:46:56 GMT
Rene - that is a wonderful picture, that is how I see the M23,
I did watch some of the practice, and quite honestly the cars just looked gross, in all and every way, It is good to see them on Hanger but then the spectacle of carrying all that speed around curve is lost, it's just gone wrong and the tragedy is I still adore F1, just not this
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Post by mikael on Jul 7, 2018 3:07:14 GMT
Emerson Fittipaldi in the McLaren M23 at the 1974 German Grand Prix, Nürburgring Nordschleife. Look at the size of that rear wing and how low it is mounted!
Interesting that Germany apparently had a ban on tobacco advertisement already in '74, as the absence of the "Marlboro" letters indicates. They were ahead of their time too ... (Now the anti-tobacco movement in many countries have gone totally overboard; but that's another matter ...)
Interesting to think about the reason for the very low placement of the rear wing ...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 9:54:59 GMT
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Post by mikael on Jul 7, 2018 9:55:08 GMT
Just a thought.
From the Friday Press Conference (Source: grandprix.com):
Q: "Guenther, an unfortunate incident for Romain in that first practice session, what can you tell us about the state of his car?"
Guenther Steiner: "We need to change the chassis, so he will not be going out in FP2. As simple as this ..."
Hard life for the mechanics in these times when no spare-car (T-car) is allowed. Change the chassis! My goodness, just imagine how much work this implies!
On another note, nice to see that Grosjean is back on pace (7th best time before the accident ... yet it must be remarked that he was more than a second slower than #6, Verstappen).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 11:05:00 GMT
Good grief, did you see Hartley's FP3 practice crash? A front suspension failure like that must be terrifying for the driver, it was pretty terrifying to watch. Over 300kph at the end of the straight, and the car went into the barriers at barely diminished speed. The front and side protection, halo, cockpit padding, seat belts, HANS device, wheel tethers, helmet and impact barriers all played a part in protecting Hartley from serious injury or death. I think it is difficult to argue that the safety measures in F1 are over the top after seeing something like that
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 11:40:40 GMT
Mikael, The M23 was indeed brilliant and well ahead of its time. Before ground effects and turbochargers, new technical ideas arrived at a more steady pace, allowing an extra season or two for brilliant designs and more time for fans to be amazed. The Lotus 49 was still competitive into its fourth season, Jochen Rindt setting a race lap record almost a second faster than Stewart's pole in 1970 and winning at Monaco. That was one hell of a swan song, as was 1976 for the M23. Cheers, Carl
Emerson Fittipaldi in the McLaren M23 at the 1974 German Grand Prix, Nürburgring Nordschleife.
Look at the size of that rear wing and how low it is mounted! ©McLaren Ltd. Its certainly a good looking car. Though having a look at pictures on Google images, it seems this low rear wing format is unusual. In most of the pictures the rear wing is set much higher on a central post. Though its apparent that they tried a number of aero developments over the years, with different intake shapes and positions, and even fairings in front of the rear wheels (early days for aero-dynamasists). I see the M23 was used in five separate seasons, and was itself based on the M16 Indianapolis car. The development budgets were way smaller in the 70's, and (i guess) the rules were more stable. It looks quite a long and wide car, but the wheel base is nearly 1m shorter than the MCL32, not sure about the width though.
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Post by René on Jul 7, 2018 11:57:39 GMT
Good grief, did you see Hartley's FP3 practice crash? A front suspension failure like that must be terrifying for the driver, it was pretty terrifying to watch. Over 300kph at the end of the straight, and the car went into the barriers at barely diminished speed. The front and side protection, halo, cockpit padding, seat belts, HANS device, wheel tethers, helmet and impact barriers all played a part in protecting Hartley from serious injury or death. I think it is difficult to argue that the safety measures in F1 are over the top after seeing something like that I had the same thought when I saw the accident. This would have been fatal not even so long ago. We are critical on this forum regarding matters contemporary F1 and mostly justified but I agree it is difficult argueing safety matters after seeing this. All credits to modern technology, otherwise Brendon would not have survived.
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Post by René on Jul 7, 2018 12:04:33 GMT
Emerson Fittipaldi in the McLaren M23 at the 1974 German Grand Prix, Nürburgring Nordschleife.
Look at the size of that rear wing and how low it is mounted! Its certainly a good looking car. Though having a look at pictures on Google images, it seems this low rear wing format is unusual. In most of the pictures the rear wing is set much higher on a central post. Though its apparent that they tried a number of aero developments over the years, with different intake shapes and positions, and even fairings in front of the rear wheels (early days for aero-dynamasists). I see the M23 was used in five separate seasons, and was itself based on the M16 Indianapolis car. The development budgets were way smaller in the 70's, and (i guess) the rules were more stable. It looks quite a long and wide car, but the wheel base is nearly 1m shorter than the MCL32, not sure about the width though. I think the width is approximately the same then and now, 2 metres. This is indeed an unusual configuration with the low wing, maybe the photo was taken during practise and they were experimenting.
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Post by charleselan on Jul 7, 2018 12:49:24 GMT
As it so hot outside probably 30+ C and that I have done the watering of the animals and plants earlier I am now sat inside in the relative cool watching UK C4 Qualification build up. Brendon Hartley's accident was very heavy and a testimony to to the strength and safety standards of the current era; however I do not think that the "toilet seat" paid any part in protecting the driver, it was all of the other measures on the car and at the circuit.
Not the first time that Torro Rosso have had such issues, and poor Brendon is having a tough time much of which is not his doing, he deserves better, and not gossip about an overhyped UK F2 driver replacing him, typically RB mentality!!
It was interesting to just see one of Eddie Jordan's pieces where he really laid into Williams and McLaren, don't always agree with him but he made some good and contentious points. He intimated that Porsche may well buy Williams (vehemently denied by Claire Williams immediately afterwards, touché).
He was scathing of McLaren and has really laid his cards on the table with regard to Mr "Chubby" Brown. He didn't pull back when he said that the appointment go Gil de Ferran was not good and a job for the boys as Gil is best friends with Brown, and his daughter is dating Vandoorne, ha! ha!, good one Eddie. I doubt Brown will be in post by this time next year, in fact in an interview on S*Y Joe Saward said that it was a very close call between Bouillier and Brown, in who left.
Interestingly Jordan also mooted that Paddy Lowe was rumoured to be leaving Williams, or at he very least considering his future there.
Does anyone ever see these two teams recreating old glories now?
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Post by mikael on Jul 7, 2018 13:24:40 GMT
Good grief, did you see Hartley's FP3 practice crash?
Scary indeed.
Certainly the cars are now very strong. But the physical condition of the drivers nowadays is also a factor (in that Hartley could just walk away from that shunt). Just look at the neck of any F1 driver - it's like a bull's neck. I'm not sure an average person could have just walked away from such a shunt, no matter how strong the car is.
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Post by mikael on Jul 7, 2018 14:05:38 GMT
As it so hot outside probably 30+ C ... Here, on the other side of the Earth, we have also had some really hot days - and sleepless nights, due to the heat) but we can be grateful for typhoon #7 for cooling things down quite a bit :-) Here typhoons are not given names, just numbers, due to the sheer ... number of their presence.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 14:10:33 GMT
Ferrari better car, according Hughes significantly upgraded in the development war at Silverstone, but Hamilton is on pole. That is the best driver in F1 today. By some margin.
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Post by mikael on Jul 7, 2018 14:12:38 GMT
...but Hamilton is on pole. That is the best driver in F1 today. By some margin.
I agree :-) (Lauda knows what he's doing.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 14:14:53 GMT
And to reiterate what I said last week, Bottas has a chance only when the Merc has the clear advantage, otherwise he's back to his level, Massa or thereabouts.
PS - No offence to Massa, who would still lap around the current Williams' drivers with one arm only.
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