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Post by charleselan on Aug 28, 2018 21:08:41 GMT
Superbly atmospheric photographs René, and really pleased you enjoyed the event, hard not to at Spa. Jacques Bernard Ickx in the truly beautiful Ferrari 312B must have been some sight and sound.
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Post by René on Aug 28, 2018 22:12:15 GMT
Rene, Wonderful photographs, as always! Were you in the crowd along the Kemmel straight? That's enough special administrative privileges for now... Vettel drove a perfect race and Lewis was the perfect fool. Speaking of foolishness, if Liberty Media was responsible for the lousy music blasted too loud at intervals, they reveal amazing ignorance that not all racing is bread and circuses. "All's well that ends well" - Enzo Ferrari Thank you Carl. I was indeed along the Kemmel straight on the sunday. A great place to watch as there is quite a lot of overtaking to be seen. The only downside is it's hard to take good pictures with the high speeds. On friday I was at La Source where the cars are at their slowest. Also a great spot to watch but a shame the fence is so high as can be seen on the picture of Vettel negotiating the hairpin. “Race cars are neither beautiful nor ugly. They become beautiful when they win.” Enzo Ferrari
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Post by René on Aug 28, 2018 22:22:02 GMT
Superbly atmospheric photographs René, and really pleased you enjoyed the event, hard not to at Spa. Jacques Bernard Ickx in the truly beautiful Ferrari 312B must have been some sight and sound. Thank you JC. Spa is a wonderful place when you love racing but you know that, you've been there. The Ferrari 312B with Ickx behind the wheel was a real treat. Such a beautiful car. You can watch pictures in books and youtube clips as much as you want of this car but nothing beats the real thing. The gorgeous sound but also the brightness of the red. Looking at old pictures you sometimes forget how bright and sharp those cars were. Carl knows. He has seen it winning at Monza!
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Post by mikael on Aug 29, 2018 1:28:24 GMT
The cars are quite impressive at full speed on the Kemmel straight. The noise is much better than it was in the first year of the hybrids. Not as deafening as the V8's but a good noise with a typical woosh sound, like missiles. I like it. Great photos, René - thank you! I cannot resist commenting on your remark on the noise / sound (it is a bit of a hobbyhorse for me as it is connected with my work in a way; flow-induced sound has been a theme for me for almost 20 years). Obviously, I have not heard the engines live (just yet) this year, but it's my impression too that they sound better and better year after year. Judging from videos (if that is possible) the engines of 2018 sound "sharper" and more "crisp" than those of 2017. They sound like "real" racing engines. It has been stated that the electric motor/generator (with the fancy name "mgu-h") mounted to the turbo charger should be eliminated from 2021, in order to make the engines more noisy again. But recently there have been some writings that this may not happen anyway. In my opinion, it's good if it stays - it's best to let it stay. It is, after all, a brilliant device that removes all "turbo-lag" - and it is, in addition, self-sufficient. And when has there ever been made efforts to make a racing engine more noisy? Probably never. It has always been all about performance - and then the engine may sound as it sounds. Thinking about it, it's a funny idea that Formula 1 cars should be deafeningly noisy. (If you had forgot to bring earplugs to a GP, it was almost unbearable - your ears would "ring" for the rest of the day.) In Moto GP this was not found allowable - since the 1970's and all the way up to the last generation of two-stroke engines, they were always equipped with silencers/mufflers (ref. the photo of Rossi on a two-stroke Honda). If these silencers hadn't been in place, the sound from the typical swarm of bikes would surely have been deafening. Lastly, please forgive me for a little technical talk. If one wants "noise", then what really matters is the speed of the airflow out of the exhaust pipe - and this is directly proportional to the engine's RPM. Near the exhaust, it (the exhaust) works almost as a loudspeaker (a so-called monopole) for which the acoustic power (i.e. the sound we can hear) is proportional to the exhaust speed to the fourth power. So if the exhaust flow speed is U, the acoustic power is proportional to U*U*U*U. So, if you double the engine RPM, the acoustic power, nearby the exhaust, will be 16 times larger. In the "far field", that is, "far" away from the sound source (the exhaust pipe), the sound (rumble) that one can hear out there (where the tickets are inexpensive!) depends on the exhaust flow speed in an even more dramatic way. Out there, in the "far field", the surviving sound is proportional to the exhaust flow speed to the eight power. So if you double the engine RPM, the acoustic power (that survives in the far field) will be 256 times larger! This sounds almost too "good" - or maybe rather too bad - to be true, but it is true. It was discovered by the British scientist James Lighthill in the early 1950's. So when the RPM's of the F1 engines increase again, little by little, even under the heavy fuel-flow-restriction, gradually up the the allowable 15.000 RPM-line, the noise will surely come back! (I believe they're still not running much beyond 10.000 RPM, due to that fuel flow limit - but it's coming, little by little.) 500cc two-stroke - with silencers
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Post by Carl on Aug 29, 2018 1:56:49 GMT
The cars are quite impressive at full speed on the Kemmel straight. The noise is much better than it was in the first year of the hybrids. Not as deafening as the V8's but a good noise with a typical woosh sound, like missiles. I like it. Great photos, René - thank you! I cannot resist commenting on the noise / sound (it is a bit of a hobby horse for me as it is connected with my work in a way; flow-induced sound has been a theme for me for almost 20 years). Obviously, I have not heard the engines live (just yet) this year, but it's my impression too that they sound better and better year after year. Judging from videos (if that is possible) the engines of 2018 sound "sharper" and more "crisp" than those of 2017. They sound like "real" racing engines. It has been stated that the electric motor/generator (with the fancy name "mgu-h") mounted to the turbo charger should be eliminated from 2021, in order to make the engines more noisy again. But recently there have been some writings that this may not happen anyway. In my opinion, it's good if it stays - it's best to let it stay. It is, after all, a brilliant device that removes all "turbo-lag" - and it is, in addition, self-sufficient. And when has there ever been made efforts to make a racing engine more noisy? Probably never. It has always been all about performance - and then the engine may sound as it sounds. Thinking about it, it's a funny idea that Formula 1 cars should be deafeningly noisy. (If you had forgot to bring earplugs to a GP, it was almost unbearable - your ears would "ring" for the rest of the day.) In Moto GP this was not found allowable - since the 1970's and all the way up to the last generation of two-stroke engines, they were always equipped with silencers/mufflers (ref. the photo of Rossi on a two-stroke Honda). If these silencers hadn't been in place, the sound from the typical swarm of bikes would surely have been deafening. Lastly, please forgive me for a little technical talk. If one wants "noise", then what really matters is the speed of the airflow out of the exhaust pipe - and this is directly proportional to the engine's RPM. Near the exhaust, it (the exhaust) works almost as a loudspeaker (a so-called monopole) for which the acoustic power (i.e. the sound we can hear) is proportional to the exhaust speed to the fourth power. So if the exhaust flow speed is U, the acoustic power is proportional to U*U*U*U. So, if you double the engine RPM, the acoustic power, nearby the exhaust, will be 16 times larger. In the "far field", that is, "far" away from the sound source (the exhaust pipe), the sound (rumble) that one can hear out there (where the tickets are inexpensive!) depends on the exhaust flow speed in an even more dramatic way. Out there, in the "far field", the surviving sound is proportional to the exhaust flow speed to the eight power. So if you double the engine RPM, the acoustic power (that survives in the far field) will be 256 times larger! This sounds almost too "good" - or maybe rather too bad - to be true, but it is true. It was discovered by the British scientist James Lighthill in the early 1950's. So when the RPM's of the F1 engines increase again, little by little, even under the heavy fuel-flow-restriction, gradually up the the allowable 15.000 RPM-line, the noise will surely come back! (I believe they're still not running much beyond 10.000 RPM, due to that fuel flow limit - but it's coming, little by little.) Mikael,
I suspect we are all delighted that you didn't resist writing your learned, expert and fascinating analysis.
Kind regards, Carl
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Post by mikael on Aug 29, 2018 5:37:48 GMT
When watching René's photo of the beautiful Ferrari 312B - and seeing it in the light of the modern cars, it's interesting to note that great pains were taken, apparently, in making it as short as possible. The large engine appears to be "pushed" as deep under the driver's seat as possible. And the gearbox is amazingly compact. Considering the length of the engine, it's hard to see how the wheelbase could possibly be any shorter.
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Post by mikael on Aug 29, 2018 6:22:18 GMT
Great pictures Mikael which remind me of how things were back in the day. We could all walk around the cars and really look at them, and heaven forbid the paying spectator could actually take photos of them as well. Also the drivers were around, long before F1 drivers became Prima Madonnas who are inaccessible to the great unwashed. The mechanics back in those days were just that, real mechanics, not technicians as we are now forced to call them. Team owners and drivers like Bruce McLaren all used to chip in with doing jobs on the cars, now we have techies studying their laptops. Glad I was around in those days, unfortunately it has also shaped my mind set forever.
JC, I have never been in the paddock area by an F1 race, unfortunately. But I recall that, as a boy, at national races in Denmark (mostly in the '70's) I enjoyed walking around in the paddock area almost as much as watching the races themselves. It's interesting to know that the atmosphere at F1 races was just as friendly at some time; and yes, it's interesting to think about that star drivers like Bruce McLaren and Jack Brabham often grabbed a wrench themselves.
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Post by robmarsh on Aug 29, 2018 7:07:35 GMT
Great pics René and thank you Mikael for your technical analysis written in such a way that I could understand it. A sign of genius. René I was going to ask you if the sound of the motors was getting close to that of the Cosworth v8 but thanks to Mikael's explanation it is probably not there yet but maybe close when they get to 15000 rpm.
Mikael you solved a query I have had for some time as to how engineers from other teams could tell how many rpm a rival car was running and from there workout the power and whether they were running flat out. Fascinating and I believe this sort of thing should be made public if one wants to increase the popularity of the sport.
Finally, it has been said before and will be said again that the level of discussion on this forum is way in excess of the puerile offerings on the MS site.
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Post by charleselan on Aug 29, 2018 15:40:01 GMT
Great pictures Mikael which remind me of how things were back in the day. We could all walk around the cars and really look at them, and heaven forbid the paying spectator could actually take photos of them as well. Also the drivers were around, long before F1 drivers became Prima Madonnas who are inaccessible to the great unwashed. The mechanics back in those days were just that, real mechanics, not technicians as we are now forced to call them. Team owners and drivers like Bruce McLaren all used to chip in with doing jobs on the cars, now we have techies studying their laptops. Glad I was around in those days, unfortunately it has also shaped my mind set forever.
JC, I have never been in the paddock area by an F1 race, unfortunately. But I recall that, as a boy, at national races in Denmark (mostly in the '70's) I enjoyed walking around in the paddock area almost as much as watching the races themselves. It's interesting to know that the atmosphere at F1 races was just as friendly at some time; and yes, it's interesting to think about that star drivers like Bruce McLaren and Jack Brabham often grabbed a wrench themselves.
Mikael, I was fortunate enough to be of an age where I can recall walking around behind the pit garages (even at Silverstone). In the early 1970's everything was open, one could walk between the trucks and the cars being worked on, sometimes under an awning but often in the open air even if it were to be raining. That was my early car racing experience, however it had long been possible to walk about the paddock of motocross meetings, seeing the riders, their bikes and transportation devices. By the mid 70's things were a bit more restrictive for F1 meetings but the cars although behind low barriers when parked out behind the pits, they were within touching distance and easily photographed. They were great days and it was things like this that made for such an exciting and enjoyable experience. I would also like to thank you for the great post above detailing in easy to understand terms the issues about exhaust noise and how it is achieved etc, great work. Two things with regard these matters. I personally feel that it isn't the shear decibel rating of noise that people want (well the officiandos anyway) it is the melodics that I, and many others, miss. The shear beauty of the engines such as the Matra V12 or the Ferrari "flat" 12 is absolute music; even the trusty Cosworth DFV had a wonderful exhaust note. Many quote the turbo's from the 80's as their reference point, however they did not sound beautiful but some like the 1985/6/7 Honda V6 were the noisiest and most ear damaging in my racing experience. Even with ear plugs they were painful but without they could be excruciating if you were stood in the wrong location and subject to the full blast. After the mid 70's to early 80's I did not attend a motorcycle GP until the early 2000's and could not believe the noise of the big four stroke GP bikes, particularly the Ducati's. It is interesting to note that Rossi apparently prefers a quieter exhaust note on his race bikes and with that in mind Yamaha actually make a quieter exhaust system for their bikes to suit his needs. JC
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Post by Carl on Aug 29, 2018 16:25:04 GMT
Great pictures Mikael which remind me of how things were back in the day. We could all walk around the cars and really look at them, and heaven forbid the paying spectator could actually take photos of them as well. Also the drivers were around, long before F1 drivers became Prima Madonnas who are inaccessible to the great unwashed. The mechanics back in those days were just that, real mechanics, not technicians as we are now forced to call them. Team owners and drivers like Bruce McLaren all used to chip in with doing jobs on the cars, now we have techies studying their laptops. Glad I was around in those days, unfortunately it has also shaped my mind set forever.
JC, I have never been in the paddock area by an F1 race, unfortunately. But I recall that, as a boy, at national races in Denmark (mostly in the '70's) I enjoyed walking around in the paddock area almost as much as watching the races themselves. It's interesting to know that the atmosphere at F1 races was just as friendly at some time; and yes, it's interesting to think about that star drivers like Bruce McLaren and Jack Brabham often grabbed a wrench themselves.
In the August Motorsport interview of Petter Solberg, writer Colin Goodwin compares the atmosphere of WRC paddock areas today to that of Formula One in the 1960s and I think he is right. After then, the Grand Prix circus began collectively to gaze at its own navels, sniff its own asses and embrace a delusion of grandeur. Being wonderful always requires that others be denied entry.
I think Formula One paddocks today are sterile and ridiculous. In attempting to degrade others, the sport has degraded itself.
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Post by charleselan on Aug 29, 2018 17:23:51 GMT
Finally, it has been said before and will be said again that the level of discussion on this forum is way in excess of the puerile offerings on the MS site. Rob, I have just glanced at the MS forum and read some of the comments about the Belgian GP report, puerile is a very adequate description. God forbid should anyone suggest any of those twerps for the RRT. JC
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Post by chrisb on Aug 29, 2018 17:58:54 GMT
I do still read some of the comments and think, yea, ok, that's a thought, I quite like that. It has to be said that this is mainly our friend in Canada's comments. I do think he has made some good points and one such example was Ray's comments about Mat's excellent article regarding MotoGP safety and how it has changed since those brutal days of callous circuit promoters. The problem was that Ray's comment was challenged in a way that I struggled to understand, the challenger just seemed to want to pick a fight, but I kept thinking why? I thought Ray had made a good observation and it was relevant.
There does seem to have been a bit of change recently and some of the more toxic keyboard 'heroes' seem to have vamoosed or gotten rid of, but sadly there are still some people whose choice of comments leaves a lot to be desired and you wonder why they can't get a decent scriptwriter or ghostwriter to at least come up with something a little bit more realistic or original, but honestly, some of the comments? where do these people come from?
But the ones that get to me are the ones who repeatedly ask basically the same question time and time again or when they are 1000's of miles away - have never seen a motor race in the flesh but know better than Mr. Hughes, and can't be swayed by their own foolishness -
I still think we should invite Mat and Mark to join as our guests, as if...
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Post by Carl on Aug 29, 2018 20:13:42 GMT
Finally, it has been said before and will be said again that the level of discussion on this forum is way in excess of the puerile offerings on the MS site. Rob, I have just glanced at the MS forum and read some of the comments about the Belgian GP report, puerile is a very adequate description. God forbid should anyone suggest any of those twerps for the RRT. JC It should be quick work for one of the formidably divine at our table either to forbid entry or smite any twerps allowed in by mistake, great fun except for those smitten. >>!
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Post by robmarsh on Aug 30, 2018 6:37:27 GMT
Chris I don't see why we couldn't ask Max and Mark to join us in their private capacity. If you don't ask you will never know and if they decline we are no worse off. If you guys agree lets try.
BTW I have noticed that Mark Hughes has the perfect initials for a motor racing scribe. MPH.
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Post by charleselan on Aug 30, 2018 10:29:39 GMT
Personally I don't think either of them would be interested as the only reason they really comment on the MS site is the fact that it comes as part of their written contribution. Our forum is a wonderful place with great people, however we have to remember that there are hundreds of sites like ours with small and knowledgeable communities. I did notice when reading the comments to Mark's Belgian report that one objectionable individual was very disrespectful of dear old Jenks. OK Dennis had very different views on safety, but as I have said before he was a man of his time and held those values. For this irk to label him a small and scruffy looking little man was not acceptable. That was just one of the inane comments that appeared and sadly many written by individuals who are probably even older than me, truly terrible. I also liked "R in T's" reference to the safety in motorcycle events that Mat Oxley had written so well about, the replies to his post were lacking in understanding and I feel deliberately provocative. I feel that Ray needs his head testing for not taking up our offer of joining us here, but unfortunately he seems to prefer the slightly wider audience offered by MS.
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