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Post by René on Jul 24, 2018 17:02:00 GMT
Me too Rob. This hurts big time. I like Seb and he is driving for Ferrari, but he does not hold the same sense of awe for me than Senna did. Bad 24 hours for the Scuderia with the news about Sergio Marchionne who is in ICU in a coma. Rob, Ayrton was a very charismatic man. There was always this mystical aura around him. Sebastian is way more down to earth. A very likeable chap with a good sense of humor and a very good driver but Senna was truly one of the greats. And I guess we're a bit older now so no longer impressed so quickly! A very difficult weekend for the Scuderia. I hope even more than ever they win the next race in Hungary.
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Post by Carl on Jul 24, 2018 20:45:36 GMT
... so one get the impression that F1 technology might be really road-relevant at this time, if a break-through in battery- and charging-technology is achieved.
"Other systems treat their battery as one. Ferrari, it's one battery, but they treat it as two," said Whiting. This sounds rather mysterious ... But it's interesting.
Related to this (and unrelated to the German GP ... sorry), recently, there was a posting on the network "Linkedin" which pointed out that 110 years ago, before the debut of the Ford T, 1/3 of all cars in the US were electric cars. So at that time, it could easily have gone one way or the other. It was the Ford T that tipped the scale towards the combustion engine. Due to its success, which happened to coincide with a number of new oil findings, networks of gasoline stations sprang up - and the electric car lost out and disappeared.
Mikael, Your detective ability may have been honed by reading Arthur Conan Doyle. Well done and an excellent observation... well above elementary.
At that time, internal combustion was quite primitive but accepted as being more dynamic. Besides the slower but more refined electric cars, there were several dozen manufacturers of steam powered automobiles, whose external combustion offered speeds as fast and faster than internal combustion. In 1906, a streamlined Stanley Steamer set an automobile land speed record that stood for five years. The assembly line efficiencies and greater refinement of internal combustion eventually resulted in the demise of electric and steam as viable alternatives.
1907 Advertisement 2009 demonstration
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Post by Carl on Jul 24, 2018 21:15:30 GMT
I like Seb and he is driving for Ferrari, but he does not hold the same sense of awe for me than Senna did. Bad 24 hours for the Scuderia with the news about Sergio Marchionne who is in ICU in a coma. Rob, Ayrton was a very charismatic man. There was always this mystical aura around him. Sebastian is way more down to earth. A very likeable chap with a good sense of humor and a very good driver but Senna was truly one of the greats. And I guess we're a bit older now so no longer impressed so quickly! A very difficult weekend for the Scuderia. I hope even more than ever they win the next race in Hungary. Ayrton Senna was extraordinarily talented, challenged only by the equally fast Alain Prost, but whereas Prost was a basically ordinary person with extremely elevated skills, Senna behaved like someone possessed and had an almost mystical aura of obsession that elevated him above ordinary charisma. Having an almost messianic sense of destiny caused Senna to justify tactics that tarnished his legacy and degraded the sport by inspiring young drivers to do the same.
Prost, with no reliance on mystical obsession or dependence on dirty tactics, was a better race car driver.
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Post by Carl on Jul 24, 2018 21:29:05 GMT
Absolutely! I have the feeling these first bad races have actually made him better. He learned from his mistakes which is a very good sign. He is still very young but his recent drives have been very mature. A future champion for sure. I think Max has listened and learnt René and my hope is that this will continue; as they say "points mean prizes". I liked his drive as it displayed a sensible approach, driving a car that was second tier on this weekend and his result was all that could be achieved with it. On another matter, it is a travesty that a driver as good as Nico Hulkenburg has never had a win let alone a podium, and that is purely indicative of a formula that has a three tier level of entrant, and more often than not no second tier, just one and three. In a bygone age Hulkenburg would have had more than one chance of a win, particularly in the 1970's and 80's as there were far more teams there or there about in performance. Well said as always, John Charles, with sheer [and shear] artistry. As an accomplished photographer, you should enjoy this featured article in Primotipo.com, particularly since the squatting alien toilet seats are avoided.
Cheers, Carl
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Post by charleselan on Jul 24, 2018 21:43:36 GMT
On the subject of Ayrton Senna, it is a difficult one isn't it as it isn't plain black & white. I watched the guy climb the ranks in the UK and was at Thruxton one chilly autumnal day when he made his debut in Formula Three driving Dick Bennetts Ralt. I think it was the last F3 race of the season and he completely demolished the field which contained Martin Brundle who had just completed his first full season in the formula. Those of us who saw that drive just knew we had seen a special talent. I remember his first season in F1 driving for Toleman and there began my huge amount of photos taken of him at every British/European GP. He succeeded in annoying Ted Toleman sufficiently enough by signing for Lotus, that Ted dropped him for one race, and yet Ayrton could not understand why! I was a big fan, and he seemed the archetypical Team Lotus driver following on from Jim; Jochen; Emerson and Ronnie. We all knew of the "dark side" that he brought into play at times which ultimately manifested itself into that truly appalling act against Prost at Suzuka. To this day I believe he should have been banned for at least one year for that as it was an act of motor racing vandalism. As Carl has mentioned above his legacy is that young and impressionable and overly ambitious drivers think that is the way to race. As we have seen from Max's actions it is poor and politically motivated stewarding that is the problem. If Ayrton had been properly brought to book early in his career, many of his actions would never have happened, and if they had reared there ugly head at any time he should have been slapped hard (metaphorically speaking). I was never a great Prost fan, and it always rankled with me that he was often compared to Jim Clark. Alain was indeed a great driver and that has never been in dispute, but Jim, and JYS for that matter, were in a different league. At his very best Alain could beat Ayrton fair and square, but Senna was just inspired when the conditions were at there worst or in a qualification session; an archetypical Lotus driver .
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Post by René on Jul 24, 2018 22:28:39 GMT
Rob, Ayrton was a very charismatic man. There was always this mystical aura around him. Sebastian is way more down to earth. A very likeable chap with a good sense of humor and a very good driver but Senna was truly one of the greats. And I guess we're a bit older now so no longer impressed so quickly! A very difficult weekend for the Scuderia. I hope even more than ever they win the next race in Hungary. Ayrton Senna was extraordinarily talented, challenged only by the equally fast Alain Prost, but whereas Prost was a basically ordinary person with extremely elevated skills, Senna behaved like someone possessed and had an almost mystical aura of obsession that elevated him above ordinary charisma. Having an almost messianic sense of destiny caused Senna to justify tactics that tarnished his legacy and degraded the sport by inspiring young drivers to do the same.
Prost, with no reliance on mystical obsession or dependence on dirty tactics, was a better race car driver.
Carl, you are absolutely right about Senna but I wasn't sure if I wanted to go there so I only talked about how different they (Senna and Vettel) are personality wise. Senna had a dark side, Vettel hasn't. Seb may have the occasional red mist moment but it's not dark. What Senna did at Suzuka 1990 was darker than dark. As JC already mentioned, he should have been disqualified that year and the 1990 title should have gone to Prost. He was a brilliant driver though. And we all know history repeated itself very fast with a certain mister M. Schumacher. Brilliant driver but with the same sense of entitlement that can be dangerous.
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Post by robmarsh on Jul 24, 2018 22:36:17 GMT
Nicely put Charles. Senna was the last of five super heroes for me. The other four, in chronological order, were Fangio, Clark, Stewart and Gilles Villeneuve. Of the current bunch it is Seb followed by Max but as much as i like them they do not hold the same intensity of feeling that the first five did.
Carl, I think Prost's weaving against Senna down the main straight in Portugal 1988 at the end of the first lap and his driving into Senna at Suzuka in 1989 show that he wasn't such a saint.
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Post by Carl on Jul 25, 2018 0:18:09 GMT
Nicely put Charles. Senna was the last of five super heroes for me. The other four, in chronological order, were Fangio, Clark, Stewart and Gilles Villeneuve. Of the current bunch it is Seb followed by Max but as much as i like them they do not hold the same intensity of feeling that the first five did. Carl, I think Prost's weaving against Senna down the main straight in Portugal 1988 at the end of the first lap and his driving into Senna at Suzuka in 1989 show that he wasn't such a saint. Rob, Four out of five ain't bad...
I am well aware of Senna's awesome talent, which for me Monaco 1984 made crystal clear. No competitive racing driver has ever been a saint. While your other choices are closer by comparison, Alain Prost, whose mind games against Senna at McLaren were deviously effective, was some distance from sainthood. The politics on that team were toxic and I wonder if Ron Dennis even thought that was bad.
I agree with your analysis of the Suzuka chicane, but at the end of the first lap in Portugal (at 31:40 on the attached video) it's clearly Senna who weaves aggressively toward Prost. Most likely the only saints in racing are the mechanics.
Cheers, Carl
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Post by Carl on Jul 25, 2018 0:42:09 GMT
Carl, you are absolutely right about Senna but I wasn't sure if I wanted to go there so I only talked about how different they (Senna and Vettel) are personality wise. Senna had a dark side, Vettel hasn't. Seb may have the occasional red mist moment but it's not dark. What Senna did at Suzuka 1990 was darker than dark. As JC already mentioned, he should have been disqualified that year and the 1990 title should have gone to Prost. He was a brilliant driver though. And we all know history repeated itself very fast with a certain mister M. Schumacher. Brilliant driver but with the same sense of entitlement that can be dangerous. Rene,
The remarkable acceptance of blatant recklessness rested entirely with Bernie Ecclestone, who admired and encouraged ruthlessness. Almost everyone knows that Michael Schumacher deliberately crashed into Damon Hill on the last lap in Adelaide (he clearly looks for Hill's approach in his mirror and only then darts out from the wall), but Bernie liked that sort of thing.
I have never understood why Damon Hill didn't raise hell at the time, but apparently he was advised, similar to the Jake Gittes character in "Chinatown", that the corruption was too entrenched to counteract. Several years too late, he revealed the convictions he should never have suppressed.
I have also never understood how Ecclestone has never answered for his misdeeds, except one time, in accordance with an unfathomable German law that allowed him to purchase innocence for $100,000,000. In a world where such insanity is the norm, no wonder Vladimir Putin has the advantage. Lewis Carroll was never seen as a prophet, but Wonderland is pure omniscience.
Wild Turkey Bourbon, neat, double...
- Carl
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Post by mikael on Jul 25, 2018 3:31:38 GMT
Regarding Hamilton's abandonment of the pit call, I thought it was a display of brilliant reaction and overview (by Hamilton) - cool and calm, just brilliant. If it should have been punished, the punishment should have been applied to the team, in the form of a fine or a reduction of constructor's points, not to the driver.
That's just an opinion; and I understand the problem of inconsistent punishments. That is really a problem.
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Post by chrisb on Jul 25, 2018 4:42:15 GMT
bit like yourself JC I saw Senna in FF then FF2000 although at the time I was unsure why he went there, but my first real glimpse of this flawed genius, because that is what he was, was at Silverstone in F3 against Brundle who he took out Martin rather than lose, the difference between Prost and Senna was always Senna had to win, Prost thought as someone mentioned above - points makes prizes- something I am really [but cautiously] happy to read Max is doing, the other thing Senna did which puts him very high in my estimation is respect motor racing's past and that is something I treasure - but wholly concur with the sentiments that after Suzuka Ayrton really should have been banned, and as for Michael at Adelaine, sorry he really should have been penalised points as Damon was the really true champion that dreadful year
What a topsy-turvy year this is proving, from that perspective it has been interesting, more so on the human reaction to defeat and victory and how - and lets face it - he really is a talent - Max seems to be learning, I hope with the Honda engine/ power thingy- next year they may be 3 teams who fight every weekend, but this 3 tier racing category is not good, funny enough I caught the 73 British GP on ytub and it was just class, really interesting and competitive, but simple - I tried to read the technical blurb on today's complex machinery and whilst it may be interesting to some - i just want to race
Mikael, spot - on - consistency in punishment - oh - please sir, may we have this
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Post by robmarsh on Jul 25, 2018 8:10:33 GMT
Some really good comments and observations. Thanks guys. I think Senna went too far on occasion and that plus the increasing safety of the cars has led to some extremely dubious "passing manoeuvres" in modern day F1. I wonder how the famed last few laps in Djion might have looked with modern eyes and cars and two polarising drivers like Max and Romain at the wheel? For a start there would have been shards of carbon fibre all over the place and the battle may not have gone on as long due to a car breaking but would we have been so tolerant if our favourite driver had come off worse? I wonder. Sport has got so much aggression and anger amongst it's supporters these days.
WRT to Schumacher he took it too far and his turn into both Hill and Villeneuve were reprehensible and deserved greater sanction. However,the potential financial loss to ecclestone made sure that wasn't allowed.
I have always thought that the 1994 season was contrived and interfered with behind the scenes. After Ayrton's death there was no longer anyone in an immediate position to challenge Schumacher and the chance of a box office season was disappearing rapidly with the resultant loss of income to bce. At that stage the FW16 was not fully sorted and Hill did not have the extra talent that Senna had. I thought that some of Schumacher's penalties were over the top for the crime and he was effectively banned for four races which made the season much closer than it should have been. I am sure that things were not that kosher with that car and given that Briatore was Team Principal only makes me more suspicious. Brawn denies it and we will probably never know anyway. However, none of it condones Schumacher's action in Adelaide.
I guess we all have our heroes and will always look at them less harshly than the ones we don't like so much. I try to be as objective as possible and also try and remember that the vast majority of these guys have a talent and a skill way above me. That is what attracted me in the first place.
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Post by mikael on Jul 25, 2018 9:28:40 GMT
Hi guys, Here’s a quick live and wet greeting from the Hockenheimring! Cheers! Hi René, The Porsche-trip must have been an experience! Model 718 -- the Cayman? or the Boxster? In whatever way, both of them are beautiful cars. And "718" is a very nice model designation too :-) How do the halo-equipped F1 cars look in the flesh? Are the halos conspicuous? Best wishes M.
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Post by charleselan on Jul 25, 2018 10:01:30 GMT
Hi guys, Here’s a quick live and wet greeting from the Hockenheimring! Cheers! Hi René, The Porsche-trip must have been an experience! Model 718 -- the Cayman? or the Boxster? In whatever way, both of them are beautiful cars. And "718" is a very nice model designation too :-) How do the halo-equipped F1 cars look in the flesh? Are the halos conspicuous? Best wishes M. Mikael, That looks like the wonderful Jean Behra in the original Porsche 718 Spyder, a fantastic combination. One of my favourite photographs from childhood onwards is that of Jean in a 718 at the Targa Florio, and in colour too. Incidentally some time back there was some thoughts on here about drivers who were originally motorcycle racers, and surprisingly there are many, Jean Behra being one. JC
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Post by charleselan on Jul 25, 2018 10:23:09 GMT
From the way I see things there was a fundamental difference between Ayrton and Michael in the "tactics" they employed. To my way of thinking Ayrton's were far more emotionally driven whereas Michael's were at best cynical. I never did take to Michael as a driver, no doubting that he had great talent, but he also benefitted from a huge support system that was far reaching.
Carl has commented about the influence of Ecclestone, and there is surely little doubt that during that period this individual was pandering to Germany and its market forces. His buying out of corruption charges was one of the most disgusting things that I have encountered, just proving that money can get you out of jail anywhere. I digress.
I will always maintain that Mika Hakkinen was a faster and better driver than Michael, but he did not have these "support systems" and neither did he have competitive machinery for the majority of his career.
Speaking of other drivers, I agree with René, in that Sebastian Vettel is not a malevolent driver. He has momentary brain fade at times, as per last Sunday, but there is nothing dirty about his driving other than when he put JB on the grass in Japan one year, and I suppose the Awesome Teflonso at Monza, however the Mighty Hamilton makes that manoeuvre his stock in trade.
I have probably mentioned previously but I believe that Sebastian is a modern day Niki Lauda. The comparisons are quite pronounced to me, in the way they work at getting the car to their liking, also work ethic with the team. The one difference between them is that after all these years Sebastian still makes the occasional error; Niki by comparison had eliminated his mistakes and was pretty much bullet proof at a similar career point.
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