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Post by René on Jul 1, 2018 23:04:24 GMT
I believe we have seen enough and I say it all: ditch Vettel and give it to Ricciardo. At the very least, he's clearly much, much hungrier. What more do you need, Marchio'? And most likely a better driver. Vettel can keep his four championships, when the only challenge was er... Mark Webber. On a Newey's spaceship.
I know you were in a grumpy mood but I couldn't disagree with you more. Newey's spaceship was never as dominant in that four year period as the Merc was in 2014/15/16. Vettel is not error free but nor is Lewis. Lewis has his famous 'off' weekends and I remember he even had an 'off' year when he bounced into Massa every other race. Ricciardo is good but I would choose Vettel any time over him. He is faster.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 1:14:05 GMT
As I said, it seems to me Vettel never makes the difference, he only wins if his car is the best on the day. I can't say the same for Hamilton, more often than not he puts something in it. And I appreciate I am not always looking into details as the current sport, most of it, bores the hell out of me.
Hamilton laps around Vettel with one arm only, that much is clear to me though.
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Post by Carl on Jul 2, 2018 3:03:29 GMT
Marko had his on from the outset but Horner only had his on for the post race interviews, maybe they are banned in the pit lane during the race . Interestingly Mateschitz himself did not partake in the play act of pseudo Austrian heritage. I somehow find it hard to believe that if Kimi or Hamilton were RB drivers that they would wear said clothing. Kimi and Lewis wouldn't wear that nonsense. Never. It's likely a man in lederhosen would attract less notice than the stars of either circus.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 3:25:43 GMT
UK C4 Coulthard & Edwards double act " it all come down to when Ferrari give the order for Raikonnen to let Vettel by", Jeez when will these fools stop!!! This current Ferrari Team management, which i have criticised in the past, really seem to know what is what, and did the correct thing. Mind you looking at Sebastian's demeanour after the race makes me wonder if he feels that Kimi should have been pulled over. He shouldn't , as Kimi drove superbly all day except for a few early lock up which may have been down to car issues. Indeed, those guys have so many preconceptions RE Ferrari that they are not even able to believe what they see with their eyes. No team orders at Ferrari - if only Kimi could always keep pushing like that. PS: This also relates with Mark Hughes - one thing is to have a lead driver, another to allegedly have it written on the contract and affect tactics on track, like Massa told to let Alonso through. Kimi must keep on pushing, he's not that off Vettel, not as much as he was from Alonso. Also, Leclerc better wait another year before a move to Ferrari is fully justified, because it isn't yet.
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Post by robmarsh on Jul 2, 2018 8:13:14 GMT
I haven't watched the Moto Gp race yet because I still love F1 enough to watch and enjoy the whole build up to the start as well. I found the race quite a cracker with the result in doubt right up until two laps from the end. MV drove very well and his slight nerf of Kimi was probably as fair aswhen Kimi nearly pushed him off slightly earlier. The race was intriguing because of the tyre graining which only Ferrari didn't seem to suffer from. Maybe Ferrari were two conservative in timing their charge at the end but they now head both championships and Mercedes had a double DNF. I also really enjoyed the track despite it not being at its historic best it is still old school enough for me.
With regard to the current drivers I put Vettel and Hamilton at the top. Hamilton shades Vettel in terms of outright skill but Vettel hardly ever drops his head during the race, unlike Hamilton. Hamilton has had the most competitive car since 2014 and apart from Rosberg mentally beating him in 2016 has had an easy time except from the challenge from Vettel. Therefore despite the hype and the victories, like Schumacher, I dont put him in the top five GOATS.
Next I would say is Max, despite his age and his somewhat robust driving he is still the most talented guy for some time and is only 20.
I do not rate Riciardio as high as just about every one else seems to. He is very good but there is something I can't quite put my finger on, that stops me from putting him at the top.
I have deliberately left Alonso out because he is not driving a competitive car. It is sad that his personality when dealing with teams did not match his unbelievable skill in a car. When he won his first GP and was talking in the post race interview he reminded me of Senna and I think he should have at least 4 WDCs.
Anyway those are my views.
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Post by charleselan on Jul 2, 2018 11:52:12 GMT
A very good post above Rob withy some very interesting observations. I can understand your stand point regarding your preference for F1, even in these anaemic times for the formula; I have reverted to the times of my teens where both 2 and 4 wheeled racing carried the same obsession with bikes slightly more important. I say this as I am still passionate about cars but more in a historical sense, I am not enthralled by current car racing although against my better judgement still watch F1 if nothing better is on.
I think your current driver assessment is pretty accurate. Hamilton and Vettel have to be regarded as the top two, although both are seriously flawed in different respects; both lack the ultimate greatness of a Clark; Stewart; Prost; Senna et al. You are correct that Sebastian does not drop his head when things go wrong, he just gets stuck in which is a trait that really impresses me. Hamilton is undoubtedly very fast,. probably the quickest when everything falls into place, however he has never in all his career had to drive a "dog" of a car even at his time at McLaren. Also he does not react well to a strong team mate, and appears petulant when challenged, not the sign of greatness in my opinion.
Whether Sebastian has this supposed No.1 status written into his contract, I doubt it, as yesterdays race would pour cold water on that theory. In fact I think it was a brilliant move by the Ferrari management as it not only kept Kimi happy, but will serve to sharpen Vettel's mind and make him realise that he isn't going to get Schumacher like favours. I am not a great fan of Sebastian as a driver, but really do like the guy when he is interviewed; I viewed a good one yesterday that Ted Kravitz did with him in Canada. Sebastian just comes across as a normal guy with good values and understanding of history both in motor sport and other areas; who would believe that he himself is renovating his very first moped.
There can be little doubt that Max is pretty talented, but like Lucio I find his attitude and personality (at times) unappealing, however I take into consideration that he is very young and has been brought up by a demanding and ambitious (for them both) father; also very privileged in that most kids would give their eye teeth to be able to have his upbringing. I still feel that Charles Leclerc and Pierre Gasly could prove to be his nemesis' in years to come.
I have never rated Ricciardo as a super star, for me he is a typical driver in the mould of, say, Alan Jones; quick and consistent but not of the very top drawer. He is able to capitalise on the days when Hamilton and Vettel are not at their best; likewise Max who consistently shows himself to be quicker than the Australian. I never thought there was much in it between Ricciardo and J-E Verne; the latter being badly treated by Marko, and now proving himself to be of very high quality in whatever he drives.
If Ricciardo were to be in a team with an outstanding car and a compliant team mate then he could be a potential WC, but not alongside Max, and that is for certain. In Austria he was starting to sound like Mark Webber of old, not good.
As for "Teflonso"the very fact that no team wishes to have him aboard says it all, his reputation within teams passes before him. The guy had the potential to one of the very greatest, but being aligned to the guy who manages him is his biggest mistake, followed by an inability to show political savvy when it most matters. Ayrton could teach him a thing or two about that, plus the fact that the Brazilian was an infinitely greater driver.
I still detest the "toilet seat", even more so in watching Ricciardo struggling to get out of his RB after it broke down, pathetic device.
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Post by robmarsh on Jul 2, 2018 14:38:13 GMT
Excellent post Charles. I think we are very close in our thinking. I didn't mention Briatore because I can't stsnd him. He belongs in the same pen as Ecclestone and Moseley. In fact the only thing that marred yesterday's viewing for me was the sight of the odious little man, now sporting a goatee of all things, on the grid. Thankfully Martin Brundle walked right past him.
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Post by René on Jul 2, 2018 16:07:00 GMT
Rob, JC,
Very good posts and I feel we're very much on the same frequency here. I am more with Rob that I prefer the cars over the bikes, always have.
If this wasn't an interesting race, than I don't know what was. Good tyre management has been part of F1 racing for many decades and last sunday Max and both Ferraris were best at this. Looking back, the Mercs wouldn't have won, regardless if they suffered mechanical failure or not. They ate the tires so had to do an extra stop.
Hamilton and Vettel are the two best drivers of this generation with Max already following close behind (just lacking experience and maturity) and with the likes of Gasly, Leclerc and I feel also Ocon the quality of the new generation is already secured. F1 suddenly speaks a lot of French again!
Ricciardo is very good but not in the same league as Hamilton, Vettel and Verstappen. A good racer though and he could clinch a title if everything fell into place for him. A very likeable chap too. And indeed so is Sebastian who has a good sense of humor and is a clever bloke. Well spoken and a sincere passion for the history of the sport.
Alonso is an enigma. He is for sure as talented as Hamilton and as you said Rob, based on his talent he should have won 4 WDC's. But let's be honest, he really should have won the 2010 title with Ferrari. They lost it more than Vettel won it (and not only in that last race). If he had, his record would have looked so much better.
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Post by Carl on Jul 2, 2018 16:30:29 GMT
Excellent post Charles. I think we are very close in our thinking. I didn't mention Briatore because I can't stsnd him. He belongs in the same pen as Ecclestone and Moseley. In fact the only thing that marred yesterday's viewing for me was the sight of the odious little man, now sporting a goatee of all things, on the grid. Thankfully Martin Brundle walked right past him. A serious distortion of values has ecclestone, mosley and briatore all vastly rewarded. They interpret disgust as envy and see no reason to doubt themselves.
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Post by charleselan on Jul 2, 2018 17:26:57 GMT
Hamilton and Vettel are the two best drivers of this generation with Max already following close behind (just lacking experience and maturity) and with the likes of Gasly, Leclerc and I feel also Ocon the quality of the new generation is already secured. F1 suddenly speaks a lot of French again! It is almost looking like the 1960's with the ELF Academy which brought through a whole proliferation of young drivers. Got to hand it to the French they do produce some good racers, which I find surprising considering the terrible driving standards on the public roads. The authorities have just reduced the speed limit on ordinary roads (without central reservations) to 60kph in an attempt at reducing the appalling fatality rate. Total rubbish, speed isn't really the issue, it is the fact that most French drivers have not a clue in how to drive, no one else on the road matters but just themselves. Lovely race outside of a car, with beautiful manners; but in a car they are arrogant; selfish and rude!
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Post by robmarsh on Jul 2, 2018 17:28:15 GMT
Rob, JC, Very good posts and I feel we're very much on the same frequency here. I am more with Rob that I prefer the cars over the bikes, always have. If this wasn't an interesting race, than I don't know what was. Good tyre management has been part of F1 racing for many decades and last sunday Max and both Ferraris were best at this. Looking back, the Mercs wouldn't have won, regardless if they suffered mechanical failure or not. They ate the tires so had to do an extra stop. Hamilton and Vettel are the two best drivers of this generation with Max already following close behind (just lacking experience and maturity) and with the likes of Gasly, Leclerc and I feel also Ocon the quality of the new generation is already secured. F1 suddenly speaks a lot of French again! Ricciardo is very good but not in the same league as Hamilton, Vettel and Verstappen. A good racer though and he could clinch a title if everything fell into place for him. A very likeable chap too. And indeed so is Sebastian who has a good sense of humor and is a clever bloke. Well spoken and a sincere passion for the history of the sport. Alonso is an enigma. He is for sure as talented as Hamilton and as you said Rob, based on his talent he should have won 4 WDC's. But let's be honest, he really should have won the 2010 title with Ferrari. They lost it more than Vettel won it (and not only in that last race). If he had, his record would have looked so much better. Great post René and I agree with all you say. 2010 Ferrari lost because they underestimated Seb. I think they could have won 2012 as well.
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Post by robmarsh on Jul 2, 2018 17:32:56 GMT
Hamilton and Vettel are the two best drivers of this generation with Max already following close behind (just lacking experience and maturity) and with the likes of Gasly, Leclerc and I feel also Ocon the quality of the new generation is already secured. F1 suddenly speaks a lot of French again! It is almost looking like the 1960's with the ELF Academy which brought through a whole proliferation of young drivers. Got to hand it to the French they do produce some good racers, which I find surprising considering the terrible driving standards on the public roads. The authorities have just reduced the speed limit on ordinary roads (without central reservations) to 60kph in an attempt at reducing the appalling fatality rate. Total rubbish, speed isn't really the issue, it is the fact that most French drivers have not a clue in how to drive, no one else on the road matters but just themselves. Lovely race outside of a car, with beautiful manners; but in a car they are arrogant; selfish and rude! So South Africa doesn't hold copyright on terrible driving standards. There were 510 fatalities on the roads here over Easter which is a reduction over previous years.
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Post by chrisb on Jul 2, 2018 20:42:06 GMT
JC / Rob, interesting comments, as an infrequent guest of French roads as opposed to your daily experiences JC I have found the French car drivers on the whole far more considerate to motorcyclists than the English although near any city in any country nationality goes out of the window and all drivers suddenly become very important people who must have their own way..
Having ridden a motorbike around a lot of Europe [one trip alone encompassed 23 different countries] I would probably put the Germans and Scots [outside of cities] as the most 'road-mannered' I have experienced, and probably the Swiss and the English as the most inconsiderate, although [sorry Rene] the Dutch weren't exactly overly friendly and the Spanish did not impress, whereas the Romanian's did and the Bulgarians didn't - and as for the Italians, I think in any village, road, mountain pass I had more races than anywhere else I have ridden. Scariest was Germany , you'd be minding your own business at a certain speed [3 figures] and whoosh someone would drive past at twice your speed out of nowhere, I think i spent more time 'out of my skin' than anything else, the high speed saloon cars are deadly in their silence, but wonderfully entertaining
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Post by chrisb on Jul 2, 2018 20:54:48 GMT
with each era so there are stars and there are good drivers, I'm sorry but Vettel isn't a star and Hamilton is too inconsistent to be a real star, maybe Max having as previously mentioned seems to have learnt a great deal of himself this year will become one, but even against the likes of Mika and Michael I'm sorry neither cut it, I like Daniel - I think he is a good racer and can manage a race, something many people fail to do, but is he staying with Max? inconsistently I answer, that's why this new breed is a lot more exciting and their prospects greater, but there was another driver, another Aussie who was never rated as a star but did manage to win 3 wdc's and a knighthood,
first and foremost I was always a car fan, the 60's, 70's and 80's were motor racing heaven and I would always go to a car race rather than anything else, like weddings for instance, but the rise of Michael and the B+M exhibition started to lessen my interest and it has slowly been reduced to the level i didn't even watch Sunday's race, whereas the MotoGP was just so exciting - but it isn't just F1 - its saloon cars, WEC no more independent F2 series, etc if i go to a car race now it tends to be a historic race - with real engines- which is sad but true
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Post by Carl on Jul 2, 2018 21:44:33 GMT
The last hero I had was Dan Gurney, whose love of the sport animated and ennobled his career. I had others, but nowadays with every car in corporate colors and driving itself degraded into secondary importance, most are self-serving mercenaries to me. The same lack of driving skills prevails in America. There once were two basic types of dangerous drivers, those whose lack of knowledge comes from playing video games and the anal-retentive ones inspired to slow everyone else in the fast lane. Now there's a third type, the dangerously ignorant smartphone addicted who text and talk instead of paying attention. The vacant pompadour is extraordinarily ignorant but, as indicated by the content, he tweets his ignorance while on the toilet.
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