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Post by mikael on Dec 16, 2017 8:33:10 GMT
I am aware that the number of other members who may be interested in this film may be less than - and at most equal to: 1 ;-) Yet I can't resist to note the film here as I find it remarkable - remarkably good and interesting.
It's a Suzuki promotion film (made for American dealerships, apparently), from their first year in motocross Grand Prix; yet the promotion is discrete and modest, so this doesn't subtract from the film.
It's interesting to see how simple things were then, when top riders came to the GP's in their private cars, with their motorcycles (or just motorcycle) on a trailer.
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Post by René on Dec 16, 2017 12:27:42 GMT
Mikael, it may surprise you but I thoroughly enjoyed that! Yes, I am more a car than a bike person but this documentary is a beautiful time caption. I was five years old myself at the time so it is a flashback to a world of my earliest memories as a child. Besides the racing I like the surroundings and atmosphere, the clothes people were wearing and the cars they were driving. Great stuff and as you say, much more simple times.
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Post by mikael on Dec 16, 2017 13:03:30 GMT
Thanks a lot, René. I had similar thoughts: apart from the motor racing, the film is interesting as a historic documentary. It's interesting to notice, for example, the contrast between the gloomy atmosphere of the East German GP (of course the gloomy weather didn't help them either) and the beautiful background of the Swiss GP (and the relaxed, well-dressed, happy looking spectators there).
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Post by charleselan on Dec 16, 2017 20:21:49 GMT
What an excellent film Mikael which shows Motocross as I remember it, not the "stunt" riding formula they have these days.
Incidentally I don't think that it was the first year of Suzuki in Grand Prix Motocross as I seem to remember that they ran the year before with just Olle Pettersson as the rider. They signed Joel Robert and Sylvain Geboers for the season we see in the film and duly won the 250 MX title, both for constructor and rider (Joel). It was a tried and tested practice of the Japanese manufacturers to enter low key and then get some top stars to enable victories. Honda and Yamaha did this in road racing in the early 1960's. Suzuki were the first Japanese constructer to enter motocross, and were remarkable in what they achieved.
However it has to be said that they were greatly helped in their two stroke technology by the defection of Ernst Degner from the East German MZ manufacturer when participating in World Championship road racing.
Also interesting in this film is the emergence of the Finnish rider Heikki Mikkola who won two of the races featured on his Husqvarna; he later went on to become 500cc World Champion.
JC
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Post by René on Dec 16, 2017 23:30:11 GMT
Thanks a lot, René. I had similar thoughts: apart from the motor racing, the film is interesting as a historic documentary. It's interesting to notice, for example, the contrast between the gloomy atmosphere of the East German GP (of course the gloomy weather didn't help them either) and the beautiful background of the Swiss GP (and the relaxed, well-dressed, happy looking spectators there). Yes, I think at the time we had the impression the weather was always gloomy on the other side of the iron curtain.
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Post by mikael on Dec 17, 2017 9:52:28 GMT
JC,
thank you very much for your comments. You are undoubtedly right in that it was Suzuki's second year in GP's and not first.
I agree with you also in that the "old-school" tracks with fast straights and fast sweeping bends provided much more "real racing" that the washboard-jump-washboard type of tracks that prevailed already from the '80s and onward.
But thinking about it, perhaps the evolution that followed was unavoidable. As the popularity of the sport grew, permanent tracks became necessary, and with many riders using them these were soon worn down, in the sense that the fast straights typically turned into "washboards". Hence the speed went down. As a compensation for the loss in speed more jumps were added, to "spice up the show". These two developments (washboards and jumps) in turn demanded the long-travel suspension that soon appeared. And the motorcycles with long-travel suspension were in turn harder on the tracks. A self-sustaining "circle", with no return ...
As to the Degner-Suzuki case, this summer I acquired Mat Oxley's "Stealing Speed" - but I have not yet found the time to read it carefully from cover to cover - so far I have just read bits and pieces of it.
It was clearly a case of trade of stolen intellectual property, yet it's a tricky case. Degner was desperate to leave the East-block, not just for his own sake but also to give his wife and young son a brighter life. And at Suzuki they were all at sea with the two-stroke engine and could not see the light at the end of the tunnel. But of course, in whatever way, the (Degner-Suzuki) deal was a crime ...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2017 10:05:40 GMT
I liked the Suzuki video. Reminded me I actually went to a world championship race long time ago, at Schupfart in Northern Switzerland, close to where my parents lived (and I was born). Looking in internet it must have been either 1976 or 1979 (really don't recall the year), Gaston Rahier - Suzuki rider par excellence - won on both occasions. I recall it was on the side of a hill, beside an aviation field which is still there, chock-full of people and the stretch of motorbikes parked went on for kilometres, literally.
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Post by mikael on Dec 17, 2017 11:43:59 GMT
Thanks a lot, Lucio. Gaston Rahier in the late 70's - then it must have been 125cc, right? As everyone started out in the 125cc class, it was an extremely competitive category, both nationally and internationally.
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Post by charleselan on Dec 17, 2017 12:58:34 GMT
Mikael,
I think you have summed it up with regard to the changes in how we see motocross today as opposed to its origins. The advent of the "mono shock" and improvements in shock absorber technology played a major part, as did the American influence that came via "Supercross", which also brought about the "show".
As you so correctly mention the old tracks had long fast straights with sweeping bends; also the challenging steep climbs and decent made for a totally different spectacle.
The East German round featured in the film showed what the events were like when undertaken in heavy rain. I have been to many meetings with my parents back in the 1960's where it was a challenge not only for the riders but the spectators alike. getting out of the public car parks was an event in itself. Very often the local farmers would be brought in to tow stranded cars out of the quagmire that had once been a car park.
As a kid I used to amaze fellow spectators as i was the only person who could identify riders when they were virtually disguised from head to toe in mud/ On one occasion a lady standing next to us track side said to my mother how does he know who they are; to which my mother replied "he just does"!
I have no problem with what Ernst Degner did by taking the MZ technology to Suzuki. Living under such a regime must have been truly desperate and he took his chance like any other same person would have done for his family and himself. The Japanese certainly never forgot the debt they owed to him; hence "Degner Curve" at Suzuka.
JC
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2017 17:02:33 GMT
Thanks a lot, Lucio. Gaston Rahier in the late 70's - then it must have been 125cc, right? As everyone started out in the 125cc class, it was an extremely competitive category, both nationally and internationally. Yes Mikael, the bigger bore bikes had their Swiss GP at either Wohlen or Payerne.
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Post by Jamie on Dec 18, 2017 19:41:01 GMT
As to the Degner-Suzuki case, this summer I acquired Mat Oxley's "Stealing Speed" - but I have not yet found the time to read it carefully from cover to cover - so far I have just read bits and pieces of it. Fantastic book Mikael, a fascinating tale. Thanks for that link as well, really enjoyed it
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Post by charleselan on Dec 18, 2017 21:22:53 GMT
Walter Kaaden was the man who transformed two stroke engines by understanding resonance in the exhaust system and thus invented the expansion chamber. He was the man at the East German MZ company that made those two stroke twins fly, and when his top East German rider Ernst Degner defected the ideas went with him to Suzuki.
Many people in the Uk remember the MZ as a simple single cylinder two stroke commuter bike, not very inspiring to say the least. However those race machines were very good and many top western European riders rode them with success; including the truly incredible Mike Hailwood.
In the late 1950's early 1960's the Villiers two stroke motors in the British motocross machines like Greeves; DOT and Cotton all had short simple megaphone like exhausts that ended just below the engine. Very noisy and none too sophisticated. By the mid 60's expansion chambers were being experimented with by many manufacturers and the ones seen in the film linked by Mikael were very much the fashion by 1970.
One of the biggest and most outrageous was the one seen on the reborn AJS machines in the early 1970's, they were massive. The bikes were fast but very unreliable much to the annoyance of some really excellent British riders.
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Post by mikael on Dec 19, 2017 5:18:17 GMT
The two-stroke engine is fascinating, in particular with an expansion chamber exhaust in place. I recall having read something like the following (as usual I don't recall the source): "If one imagines that the two-stroke had not been invented but instead, is invented just now, in the 21st century, and the inventor presents it at a patent office he would likely be received with a comment like, "Well, that sounds fantastic for sure, but obviously, something like that won't work!" " Inserted is a simulation borrowed from Wikipedia (which is open domain, so I reckon it's OK to use it here). That the fresh air-fuel mixture is blown out in the expansion chamber - and then pushed back into the combustion chamber by the reflected wave, to be used - it's truly amazing that it's possible; that this actually works! It's like a turbo-charger without moving parts. What an idea, what imagination by Walter Kaaden!
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Post by mikael on Dec 19, 2017 5:54:18 GMT
One of the biggest and most outrageous was the one seen on the reborn AJS machines in the early 1970's, they were massive. The bikes were fast but very unreliable much to the annoyance of some really excellent British riders. JC, I could not resist to "Google" the AJS you mention. A beautiful motorcycle indeed! Yes, the expansion chamber exhaust is indeed peculiar - very long and "shallow".
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Post by charleselan on Dec 19, 2017 16:10:07 GMT
One of the biggest and most outrageous was the one seen on the reborn AJS machines in the early 1970's, they were massive. The bikes were fast but very unreliable much to the annoyance of some really excellent British riders. JC, I could not resist to "Google" the AJS you mention. A beautiful motorcycle indeed! Yes, the expansion chamber exhaust is indeed peculiar - very long and "shallow". Mikael, Thank you for two superb posts. Firstly the working graphic of the expansion chamber is so good and explains things so clearly on how the device actually works, as you say it is like a turbo charger, and basically comes for free with no moving parts. The picture of the AJS Stormer is stunning and as you again mention it is a lovely looking bike, just as a motocross bike should look in my opinion. The bike pictured really shows how it is influenced by the Husqvarna and CZ machines that were so dominant at that time. As for its expansion chamber it is far neater and smaller than the later models of the bike, particularly the big 420cc machine. Incidentally my favourite rider of the 1960's who had the terrible leg break which ruined his career, Vic Eastwood, was the development rider for AJS in the early 1970's and rode in may GP's, but as mentioned before wasn't the same rider as he had been pre injury. Incidentally for a period of time the number one rider of the lightweight 250cc AJS Stormer was a guy called Malcolm Davis who came from a nearby city to where i grew up and lived most of my life. In fact my father bought my motocross bike from him as he had a large motorcycle dealership in the city. Malcolm was a hugely talented rider and many predicted that he would be the next Dave Bickers but he never achieved in GP's what his ability warranted. He did win many national 250cc titles in the late 1960's early 1970's, mostly on works Bultaco's. When on AJS machines he arrived at the 1968 British 250cc Grand Prix held at the beautiful fast and flowing Dodington Park track in Gloucestershire and drove the huge British crowd wild. He simply blitz the great Joel Robert and Sylvain Geboers along with the equally great Torsten Hallman, effortless passing them on the technically challenging downhill sections. However while leading both legs the bike failed much to the massive disappointment of the crowd. Robert, not a man easily impressed, said that Malcolm was the best rider he had ever seen on downhill sections. After gaining many more British 250cc National Championship titles Davis finally retired from motocross in the late 1970's and then put more effort into his trials riding, which was also very good. Sadly while on a road section of a trial in 1980 he stopped to check his road map and was hit from behind by a car and died from his injuries, a terrible end for such a brilliant rider. Below a picture of Malcolm on his AJS; also Dave Bickers on his Greeves MD21 which shows the short cut off megaphone exhaust of early two stroke engines and then a great picture of British racer Derek Woodman on a works MZ road race machine.
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