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Post by mikael on Dec 4, 2020 20:20:05 GMT
JC, thank you for posting that movie clip. It's really interesting to be able to see - finally (and thanks to the internet) - how motocross of that period actually looked like - the period I've heard so much about (from my father) but never saw. In particular, I've heard a good deal about Rolf Tibblin (or "Tibbe" as he was called in motocross circles). Thinking about Brian Stonebridge's sad destiny, yes, the public roads were (also) dangerous places at that time. A motocross circuit was, most likely, actually a safer place to be!
Best regards, M.
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Post by charleselan on Dec 5, 2020 13:29:52 GMT
JC, thank you for posting that movie clip. It's really interesting to be able to see - finally (and thanks to the internet) - how motocross of that period actually looked like - the period I've heard so much about (from my father) but never saw. In particular, I've heard a good deal about Rolf Tibblin (or "Tibbe" as he was called in motocross circles). Thinking about Brian Stonebridge's sad destiny, yes, the public roads were (also) dangerous places at that time. A motocross circuit was, most likely, actually a safer place to be!
Best regards, M.
You are welcome Mikael. It is far too short but such is the Pathé News films of the day, at least it gave a small insight into the event and was a good find. Rolf Tibblin was a great rider and along with Torsten Hallman was a sort of middle generation Swedish motocross GP star. In the 1950's there was Bill Nilsson; Sten Lunden & Ove Lundell and then we had the great 1960's generation which went into the '70's with Arne Kring; Bengt Äberg; Häkan Andersson; Ake Jonsson and Christer Hammargren who of course were later followed by "Carla". Indeed the road were deadly places in those times with many accident that proved to be fatal, today most of those would not have been. Apparently one of the biggest causes of injuries and fatal ones was the steering column . Which now of course are designed to deform in a head on impact. I would agree that the motocross circuits were probably safer, although there were quite a lot of accidents that resulted in common fractures and of course the age old back injury. The only two fatal MX accidents of well known riders that I know of were the great René Baeton and Britains Jerry Scott. |
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Post by charleselan on Feb 20, 2021 14:54:43 GMT
I came across this excellent film of the 1977 250cc British Motocross Grand Prix from Hawkstone Park last night. It really is an excellent film on this demanding course, that was not one of my personal favourites, although many in the film claim it be the best circuit in the world.
This was a period when I did not attend many motocross events, not certain why but probably due to clashing car racing meetings that were my priority back then.
Interesting to see that its as a time when the European marques were back and predominant after a period in the early 1970's when Suzuki and Yamaha had dominated. In 1977 it was the turn of KTM; Maico; Bultaco and Montessa, as well as some Husqvarna and CZ models still to the fore. Maico had become the bike to have by privateers in the UK, much like Husqvarna had been in the early mid 1960's which was then followed by CZ. All this of course due to their success' in international motocross by the factory teams.
Strangely I had forgotten about Moisseev until quite recently, and that he was a double 250cc world champion but that was due to my moving away from the sport at that time. I do remember him in the years preceding this when he was thought of as a steady runner but nothing that special.
A good insight into the development of two British talents; Graham Noyce was a massive talent at the time but as he says in the film 500cc bikes were his speciality and this was before he joined Honda and raced those big red 500 machines with so much success. The other was a young 19 year old Neil Hudson who I had seen quite a bit in national meetings and he was a very good rider who if memory serves me correctly rode Maico's for much of his career.
Lovely film which typifies the era beautifully.
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Post by mikael on Feb 21, 2021 9:45:55 GMT
I came across this excellent film of the 1977 250cc British Motocross Grand Prix from Hawkstone Park last night. It really is an excellent film on this demanding course, that was not one of my personal favourites, although many in the film claim it be the best circuit in the world. JC,
Thank you kindly again. A very interesting and well-made documentary indeed. What a track Hawkstone Park was/is! Very demanding and exhausting indeed. Those years (late 1970's) very interesting also, I think, in that they were the years of transition between the traditionally looking motorcycles and the long-legged ones of the 1980's with very long suspension-travel.
I had also completely forgotten about Moiseev - if I ever took real notice of the name in the first place (I must admit). I must have seen the name, but I believe Scandinavian journalists preferred to ignore him. (On checking now, I see that he was, in fact, a Russian Army officer; and the Cold War was not far away ...) The heroes of the time (in the Scandinavian press, at least) were riders like Heikki Mikkola, Håkan Carlqvist, and - in particular - Roger De Coster. (The latter almost had a status like, say, Mike Hailwood or Giacomo Agostini; at least, that was my impression.)
I was a bit more up-to-date with the overall motocross scene a few years later, from 1980 on, as I then subscribed to a couple of motorcycle racing magazines. In those years, Neil Hudson had become a Yamaha 250cc factory rider, I recall - and in 1981 World Champion (in the 250cc class).
Yes, interesting indeed that European manufacturers like KTM, Maico, and Husquarna were able to come back and take on the Japanese manufacturers again. Perhaps they were simply better to identify the young up-and-coming talents (in part, maybe, due to their geographical location)- because technically, I believe the commitment of the Japanese was on a different level.
One thing that always fascinated me, when watching photos of Japanese factory bikes (and even more so when - very rarely - seeing one "in the flesh"), was the always unpainted exhaust expansion chamber - simply because the factory engineers always fiddled with the shape (of the expansion chamber), in order to maximize the power, and the power-band, of the engine. I don't think the European manufacturers charged that hard.
Cheers, M.
Neil Hudson's 1981 Yamaha factory racer (250 cc class). One can notice the unpainted (and modified, pieced-together-looking) expansion chamber.
Neil Hudson on the factory Yamaha, probably also 1981 (because in '82 the engines became water-cooled). Hudson won the 1981 World Championship (250cc category).
The European manufacturers managed to come back time and again. (Heinz Kinigadner of Austria, World Champion 1984, 250cc class, on KTM.)
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Post by mikael on Feb 21, 2021 11:06:33 GMT
I now came across a somewhat similar, Castrol-sponsored, production from 1978. It's interesting to notice, at around 4:00 and ahead, the almost impossible, drenched French track.
Thinking again about the very challenging Hawkstone Park, yes, there were a number of the Grand Prix venues that were very challenging indeed - bordering on the outright scary - and that's, in a way, how it should be.
I recall, now, that my (late) dad told me about the track in Bilstein, Germany, where there was a downhill section that he, even as a very experienced rider, found outright frightening. He went there in 1960 (as I clearly recall him telling), when the suspension was still of the short-travel type, and coming from a rather fast approaching section, you would land at the bottom of that slope, the suspension bottoming out with a big "bang" that "went through marrow and bone", thinking each time that, "now, surely, the frame must have cracked".
I found a photo from the 1981 Trophée des Nations, that took place on the Bilstein track, and I believe that this is the very place, the fearsome "downfall"-section of the track. The photo indicates that, after reaching the bottom, it goes uphill again with, perhaps not quite similar, but still significant, steepness.
Johnny O'Mara (USA), Bilstein 1981.
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Post by mikael on Feb 21, 2021 12:52:12 GMT
Apropos of Yamaha: actually a curious mixture of products they manufacture: musical instruments (in particular, pianos) and motorcycles (plus a few other types of light vehicles). Curious also that they're using the musical symbol (the three tuning forks) on their motorcycles.
As I recall a Japanese (scientist) said: they manufacture music - and noise.
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Post by Carl on Feb 21, 2021 17:27:13 GMT
Apropos of Yamaha: actually a curious mixture of products they manufacture: musical instruments (in particular, pianos) and motorcycles (plus a few other types of light vehicles). Curious also that they're using the musical symbol (the three tuning forks) on their motorcycles.
As I recall a Japanese (scientist) said: they manufacture music - and noise.
Brilliant and informative! I never knew those were tuning forks on the Yamaha badge. |
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Post by mikael on Feb 21, 2021 18:21:58 GMT
I forgot to mention engines under Yamaha's products; but that's "just" as a sub-contractor. Most - if not all - of Toyota's/Lexus's "performance engines" are built by Yamaha (except for those that are built by Subaru  ). This is a collaboration that goes all the way back to the beautiful Toyota 2000GT.
But this also falls under the "noise" group of products, I believe ...
The Toyota 2000GT, with a Yamaha-produced engine.
Excursions into Formula One ...
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Post by charleselan on Feb 21, 2021 19:29:43 GMT
I had a momentary thought that Neil Hudson had won a world championship when I originally wrote my comment above but without detailed knowledge of that period and lack of research did not write as such. Neil was a very good rider but his success came when I had begun to drift away from motocross, only going to occasional British GP meetings in the 1980's. My heroes of previous decades were now consigned to history and they were my inspiration, so with retirement for these chaps I had nothing to keep my interest. I can only ever remember Neil riding Maico machines, so his time on Yamaha's passed me by. As you correctly say Mikael this period (1977/8) was the change over from the more traditional twin shock machines to the long travel suspension machines that some humourist on YouTube referred to as "Pogo machines". These machines may be technically brilliant but for me they have the same effect on motocross that aero has on car racing. Talking of Roger De Coster who was indeed a very great rider, however for me the greatest of the Belgians was Joel Robert who was a sublime natural talent, but quite an unpredictable person in many ways. Roger De Coster raced during the later period of Joel's career and the other great Belgian Sylvain Geboers, and was just behind them in his early days. In fact on reflection it seems atet many motocross riders of the 1960's and 70's had quite long nascent careers before becoming the men to beat, Mossieev being one of course and Heiki Mikkola was another. I saw Heiki through much of his career and he was a long time blooming, but when he did he was outstanding and the man to beat for several seasons both on Husqvarna and Yamaha machines. Interestingly the first Russian world champion was own the 250 class and that was Victor Arbekov who rode CZ machines and it was some surprise when he burst on the scene beating the top men Torsten Hallman; Dave Bickers and a very young Joel Robert. Arbekov's career at the top was quite short and he was also a Russian military man as were so many sportsmen from that nation at the time. A good picture of Victor (3) and Joel (1) as CZ team mates.  |
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Post by Carl on Feb 22, 2021 0:04:14 GMT
I remember being amazed to learn Roger De Coster could balance on the foot-pegs of a stationary bike for more than a minute. That extraordinary level of balance is probably both a natural ability and also one finely honed by practice. Jacky Ickx also certainly benefited in his car racing from his experience and great success riding in Trials competition.
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Post by René on Feb 22, 2021 18:47:03 GMT
Apropos of Yamaha: actually a curious mixture of products they manufacture: musical instruments (in particular, pianos) and motorcycles (plus a few other types of light vehicles). Curious also that they're using the musical symbol (the three tuning forks) on their motorcycles.
As I recall a Japanese (scientist) said: they manufacture music - and noise.
Yes, and their instruments are absolutely world class also.
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Post by charleselan on Feb 22, 2021 20:18:31 GMT
I now came across a somewhat similar, Castrol-sponsored, production from 1978. It's interesting to notice, at around 4:00 and ahead, the almost impossible, drenched French track.
Thinking again about the very challenging Hawkstone Park, yes, there were a number of the Grand Prix venues that were very challenging indeed - bordering on the outright scary - and that's, in a way, how it should be.
I recall, now, that my (late) dad told me about the track in Bilstein, Germany, where there was a downhill section that he, even as a very experienced rider, found outright frightening. He went there in 1960 (as I clearly recall him telling), when the suspension was still of the short-travel type, and coming from a rather fast approaching section, you would land at the bottom of that slope, the suspension bottoming out with a big "bang" that "went through marrow and bone", thinking each time that, "now, surely, the frame must have cracked".
I found a photo from the 1981 Trophée des Nations, that took place on the Bilstein track, and I believe that this is the very place, the fearsome "downfall"-section of the track. The photo indicates that, after reaching the bottom, it goes uphill again with, perhaps not quite similar, but still significant, steepness.
Johnny O'Mara (USA), Bilstein 1981.
Mikael, It is often overlooked that the ability to ride downhill fast is one of the most challenging aspects of motocross. I once mentioned that the great Belgians like Joel Robert were in awe of my fellow Gloucestershire compatriot Malcolm Davis and his amazing ability to be so fast downhill. None more so than in the British 250cc GP's held at Dodington Park back in the late 1960's and early 1970's. This was a very fast grassy track, one of my favourites and it featured several steep climbs and decent sections. Malcolm always rode brilliantly there and lead most GP's at some stage or other but was usually let down by mechanical frailty, the groan from the very patriotic crowd when his bike expired could be heard over the engine noise around the circuit. That Bilstein track sounds very challenging and in some ways has similarities with another track in the Uk that hosted several 250cc British Gp's in the 1960's. This was Shrublands Park and that had some pretty desperate up and down hill sections in amongst trees. I did not ever get to see this place as it was right across on the eastern side of the Uk and pretty unaccessible back in those days; doubt my dad would have fancied taking our BSA motorcycle combination all that way in those times. JC P.S. You mention unpainted exhausts on the Japanese bikes. It is interesting to note that the early CZ's with their single cylinder twin exhaust port motors had two highly polished pipes and very surprisingly mounted every low down for a motocross bike. It did not stop them from being very successful and were much in demand from the wealthy private rider in the UK. The later single port CZ's had a high mid mounted exhaust, many of those were also chrome or polished in finish; the 380cc version was a beast of a bike according to Dave Bickers who actually was a factory rider for CZ at that time. Roger De Coster also rode one as well before going over to Suzuki machines. |
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Post by chrisb on Feb 23, 2021 7:48:10 GMT
I did like to ride the small off-roaders as they really were great fun, a mate is talking about going to the Canaries for some off-roading, apparently it is great fun out there, when we are allowed to that is, so maybe
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Post by charleselan on Feb 23, 2021 17:44:37 GMT
I viewed the Heikki Mikkola film on my big TV last evening and what a joy. Interesting that Heikki was on the way to his second consecutive 500cc title in the film and was 33 years old, quite "elderly" for a motocross rider at that level. In an interview in the film Brad Lackey confirms my earlier comment that Heikki was a late bloomer, but his success came from experience; continued desire to win and supreme physical fitness, he was the best at that time and by quite some margin.
I had also forgotten that Roger De Coster had a very serious accident that nearly cost him his life and in this film he was on the road back to full fitness, a remarkable man indeed.
The French GP that is featured is from these parts in northern France, but it is not a track I liked the look of, very much a fore runner to the circuits of today with up and down sections that seemed to go on forever. The Italian round looked far more traditional in layout.
Interesting seeing Bob Wright on the four stroke CCM which were based on the BSA machines of a few years previously. Bob was a big brave lad, my dad liked him I seem to remember. Quite a few big British names ended up riding the CCM's after this with names like Vic Allen; Jimmy Aird and my old 1960's hero Vic Eastwood. It was great that the four stroke CCM's were still competitive at that time.
Great film I really enjoyed it.
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Post by mikael on Feb 26, 2021 16:09:30 GMT
JC,
I never had the privilege to see Mikkola or De Coster race, unfortunately. Still, as a kid, I have spent an uncountable number of hours studying photos of the great riders of the mid-70's. (It was also difficult to come across movies. But I recall that the local library had, somehow, some good, richly illustrated books on motocross.) So my impressions may be hard to justify; yet it was my impression that De Coster was, by far, the most "natural" rider of his time. In almost any photo one can come across, his riding seems so easy and effortless. It seems also that he was not a physical rider, i.e., he was not naturally (genetically) physically strong in the same way as Mikkola was. (But of course this is just a "gut-feeling" - I may be wrong ...) I thought about if he was a "natural" in the same way as, say, Jim Clark. But perhaps he was more an analytical rider, in the same way as Niki Lauda was an analytical driver. From what I have read, it seems that he thought a great deal about how to be smooth and fast - and he was able to reach the right conclusions in this respect, and able to realize his ideas physically, in the races.
Best regards M.
Heikki Mikkola (on Husquarna) leading Roger De Coster (on Suzuki) in 1975.
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). This is a collaboration that goes all the way back to the beautiful Toyota 2000GT. 
