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Post by robmarsh on Aug 6, 2020 17:45:10 GMT
I go along with Charles. What was once deemed rough seems to be fair these days. The thing is I don't recall the commentators being as harsh on Senna and Schumacher at the time as they are now, that is why I find it a little expedient and LH has only cleaned up his act since Bottas doesn't push him like Nico did. Albon may also have a different view. Absolutely Rob. Has Bottas ever gone wheel to wheel with Lewis Hamilton? I still maintain to this day that Nico Rosberg was hard done by at Spa, when lead by Kravitz a witch hunt was started against the lad. I will never forgive Kravitz for that terrible bit of "journalism", it was an abject disgrace. Hamilton was always criticising drivers for pushing him wide when going around the outside himself, yet what does he do in the reverse role. Charles I didn't know Kravitz was involved in that Spa debacle with Nico. I think Nico always got the short end of support from management when with Mercedes. Please can you refer me to the article by Kravitz, I would like to read it. There is a book I read recently called Driven:The Men Who Made Formula 1 by a chap called Kevin Eason. I read it on Kindle. It is a summary of how F1 came to be what it is now and is relatively light reading but it does give some good insights into F1, including Eddie Jordan cheating his way into Business Class, his wig and also how BCE saw the marketing advantage to be gained from Schumacher and Hamilton and how he used his influence to get them into Benetton, Ferrari and Mercedes. It pits a better light on Ron Dennis but all in all I didn't come away with a feeling of warmth towards anybody currently involved in the administration of the sport. Worth a read at four quid. |
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Post by Carl on Aug 6, 2020 17:46:16 GMT
Murray does have a point though I am not sure if LH is blemish free. Who is Rob, who is? "Everybody's got something to hide, except for me and my monkey" - John Lennon |
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Post by robmarsh on Aug 6, 2020 17:48:39 GMT
I agree with a lot you guys say but there is one aspect of Murray Walker's comment that must not be overlooked; the fact that Lewis has reached his enormous success without ever being unsportsmanlike unlike Senna or Schumacher. That also contributes to greatness. And I agree with him.
But I've never been a fan of this 'greatest of' discussion as I don't believe you can really compare the different eras. Certainly when they are more than 20 or 30 years apart. But it's always obvious who are the best of a certain era and I do believe they would also have been amongst the best in a different time. It's still the same set of qualities that makes certain drivers stand out, just look at Charles and what he showed last weekend.
Rene, You overlook the many times Hamilton deliberately punted Rosberg into the boondocks at the first opportunity, usually at turn one after the start, and his childish antics in Abu Dhabi.
I was thrilled for Lewis in 2008 at Interlagos, but as he became filled with himself over the years I began wishing the more deserving Felipe Massa had been champion.
Don't forget "Liargate" in which LH was involved in. I think one of the Australian GPs fairly early in his career. |
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Post by charleselan on Aug 6, 2020 19:16:34 GMT
Rob,
Kravitz did not write anything it was his aprés race antics on S*YF1 that I found so distasteful. He was stood in the Pit exit road inside La Source and basically condemning Nico in a manner that I had never before witnessed. He did not have the full facts at his disposal at that time, and if he had done it was not up to him (Kravitz) to be urging Tonto et al to come down hard on Rosberg Jnr.
Maybe there is footage out there on the internet of that but I have not seen it recently.
JC
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Post by Carl on Aug 6, 2020 20:59:50 GMT
Rob, Kravitz did not write anything it was his aprés race antics on S*YF1 that I found so distasteful. He was stood in the Pit exit road inside La Source and basically condemning Nico in a manner that I had never before witnessed. He did not have the full facts at his disposal at that time, and if he had done it was not up to him (Kravitz) to be urging Tonto et al to come down hard on Rosberg Jnr. Maybe there is footage out there on the internet of that but I have not seen it recently. JC I knew Nico Rosberg was blamed unfairly for what was unavoidable contact, a racing incident, but not about this. My opinion of ted kravitz just tanked. Maybe he and david croft should resign to start a school of mindless mirth and giggles. |
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Post by robmarsh on Aug 7, 2020 8:14:19 GMT
Rob, Kravitz did not write anything it was his aprés race antics on S*YF1 that I found so distasteful. He was stood in the Pit exit road inside La Source and basically condemning Nico in a manner that I had never before witnessed. He did not have the full facts at his disposal at that time, and if he had done it was not up to him (Kravitz) to be urging Tonto et al to come down hard on Rosberg Jnr. Maybe there is footage out there on the internet of that but I have not seen it recently. JC Thanks Charles, I shall look for it. I remember the incident between Nico and Lewis and was astounded that he got hammered the way he did. I thought at its very worst it was a racing incident. Psychologically it took him out of the title race that year. Maybe that is what was intended and maybe that was why he stuck it to Mercedes the way he did in 2016. |
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Post by René on Aug 7, 2020 9:53:38 GMT
Lewis is no saint guys and I am well aware of that. But I don't believe he ever did a Senna/Suzuka 1990 or a Schumacher/Adelaide 1994 or Jerez 1997. Schumacher was only disqualified for Jerez '97 but should have been disqualified for Adelaide and Senna for Suzuka. Certainly Suzuka was something I didn't understand back then and still don't to this day.
Driving standards have certainly changed over the decades with the odd exception here and there (Farina as mentioned was very bad). And today there are still drivers who will always drive clean but if you look at Leclerc who is basically a clean driver, he has become more tough since Austria last year. The way he blocked Lewis in Monza was also on (and sometimes over) the edge. Winning is all.
I guess that has a lot to do with increased safety. Professional cycling is way more dangerous these days.
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Post by charleselan on Aug 7, 2020 10:49:41 GMT
I believe we were all still commenting on MS back at the time of the Spa incident, I know my thoughts were always a little less well received there about that coming together back then.
Nico Rosberg was ostracised for it, and Kravitz behaviour afterwards was a down tight disgrace, I can never ever forgive that. He is a pompous little prick at the best of times and displays the side of media man that I despise. He also showed himself up on another occasion when he barged in front of another TV crew who were waiting to interview a driver, a case of I'm the mighty S*YF1 so get out of my way attitude. Total pr*ck.
To my way of thinking it was a racing incident and both drivers were responsible for the outcome. All this crap spoken by the so called expert pundits that "x" driver was not halfway alongside driver "y" is immaterial. A driver should have the self awareness that a guy "is there" and allow room, if not the intent is to have an accident.
I agree that the Schumacher and Senna incidents were far worse and have said so many times previously, both should have had substantial bans and by doing that it would have sent a message loud and clear to others that followed.
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Post by Carl on Aug 7, 2020 16:20:34 GMT
I believe Senna and Schumacher were allowed, even encouraged, to be ruthless by the runt ecclestone, who engendered corruption and despised fairness. Suzuka and Adelaide were in accordance with this baseness, acts of boldness to be admired.
Only when the less clever Schumacher went far beyond plausible deniablity on two occasions and acted as though he could do no wrong were standards enforced, not by the poison dwarf but by lesser authorities who'd had enough. |
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Post by chrisb on Aug 8, 2020 9:43:26 GMT
Murray does have a point though I am not sure if LH is blemish free. Who is Rob, who is? fascinating thread chaps, who is blemish free? quite a few in my humble of opinions, Nuvolari, Rosemayer, Ascari, Fangio, JYS, Ronnie, Gilles amongst others, I hesitate about one, although completely blameless for the terrible accident in 1961 at Monza does that blemish Jimmy? no, not in my opinion, I am still perplexed by that accident, for instance why did Stirling who was following blame Ricardo but the film evidence does not, with regards to LH, he is formidable, he was brilliant on the way up and that alone puts him in the high bracket of skill, but we have seen instances - especially when he had a team-mate who did threaten him behaved with little grace, it must have been mentally exhausting being considered a threat to LH and not be supported by your own team for what was a racing incident, |
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