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Post by chrisb on Apr 19, 2019 16:10:59 GMT
the trouble has been what one sees as the inequality, they have worked all their lives they are told they get less pension than an immigrant will receive in benefits and blame Europe for it, whereas this may not be true but it played to the prejudices of the many and of course the Tories who are reaping the financial rewards for their endeavours whilst the rest of the country struggle are fuelling the rise of the right and the lies the people who campaigned to leave Europe were sold effectively and their personal gain has been at the price of stupidity - and for those who think otherwise Messer F is on a 3/4 million pound a year pension from the EU - aw bless
Jim, I have looked through my ancestry to see if I can obtain a European passport but have failed, so may look at a more drastic option - well maybe not -
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Post by René on Apr 19, 2019 20:02:07 GMT
thanks JC, I think it was Alan Sugar who made a speech in the House of Lords, basically saying that the liars should be sacked and imprisoned, something, funny enough I would tend to agree with Rene, have you been to the 'new' Zandvoort? if so what are your thoughts? Chris, the last time I went to the Zandvoort track was more then ten years ago but it was the 'new' Zandvoort already with the shorter track. There was an Italian car festival and we were mostly in the paddock and the main grandstand. This part is still the same as it was in the old days, even the grandstand. It is still a wonderful 'old school' track, very narrow like Suzuka and it goes up and down through the dunes. I only wonder if the modern F1 cars are not too big for this track to properly race and overtake.... oh wait, they can't overtake anyway! I hope they don't ruin the track with endless runoffs. Here are a few pics from that Zandvoort visit. Beautiful weather as you can see and my wife and I went to the beach later that afternoon. Good memories.    |
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Post by René on Apr 19, 2019 20:10:51 GMT
Several Dutch (and Belgian) media have reported there is a five year deal agreed between Zandvoort and FOM. There is no official confirmation yet and Jan Lammers, Sporting Director Zandvoort F1, has called the news items premature. But at the same time he said it is looking good but it's up to FOM to confirm the new calender. The return of the Dutch Grand Prix is planned for 2020. I think it is really going to happen. Any update yet Rene? I was having a look at some you tube video of Verstappen having a play with a Red Bull at Zandvoort. It looks like a nice track, and a huge turn out of fans for a demonstration day. No updates yet Jim. It is a great track, very old school. It will be packed if they get the race. Max is 'hot' here, you see him almost every day on tv commercials and 33 stickers on cars or kids with Red Bull caps. He's a brand by now. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 20:23:35 GMT
Jim, An interesting fact is that many with Irish descendants are now applying for Irish passports so they can retain their EU citizenship. Many are talking about moving to Scotland or Ireland should we actually leave the EU. There is little doubt that once the leave button is pressed Scotland will seek to leave the UK and gain its independence. It is horrific to be in the middle of all this, both in the Uk and from mainland Europe where i have lived for the past 11 years. It is shocking to think that a huge proportion of those who are retired voted to leave, however a huge proportion of my family and friends who are now all over 60 did not vote to leave and are in despair at this circumstance. It maybe somewhat telling that all of these people are well educated individuals. JC I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to be living through this process. It sounds like the issue has split the country in so many ways. It is hard to believe that the tiny majority in favour of leaving was justification for tearing the country apart like this. I presume David Cameron is living under police guard, probably not in the UK? On a (slightly) lighter note, the criteria for Southern Irish citizenship must have got harder over the years. I remember when Jack Charlton was managing the Irish National football team (mid 80's early 90's - I think). The story was for a player to get Irish citizenship all they needed was to have owned an Irish Setter. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 20:34:16 GMT
the trouble has been what one sees as the inequality, they have worked all their lives they are told they get less pension than an immigrant will receive in benefits and blame Europe for it, whereas this may not be true but it played to the prejudices of the many and of course the Tories who are reaping the financial rewards for their endeavours whilst the rest of the country struggle are fuelling the rise of the right and the lies the people who campaigned to leave Europe were sold effectively and their personal gain has been at the price of stupidity - and for those who think otherwise Messer F is on a 3/4 million pound a year pension from the EU - aw bless Jim, I have looked through my ancestry to see if I can obtain a European passport but have failed, so may look at a more drastic option - well maybe not - We are straying off into politics here, but as Brexit could affect motor racing, and certainly affects some of the racers around our table, I guess Rene is okay with it? It seems bizarre that the situation in the UK is causing a rise in right wing politics, when similar circumstances in the relatively recent past lead to a shift to the left, and for a few decades a more equal society. Good luck finding a personal solution to the chaos of Brexit, if all else fails, there are always the Antipodes! |
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Post by Carl on Apr 19, 2019 21:57:49 GMT
thanks JC, I think it was Alan Sugar who made a speech in the House of Lords, basically saying that the liars should be sacked and imprisoned, something, funny enough I would tend to agree with Rene, have you been to the 'new' Zandvoort? if so what are your thoughts? Chris, the last time I went to the Zandvoort track was more then ten years ago but it was the 'new' Zandvoort already with the shorter track. There was an Italian car festival and we were mostly in the paddock and the main grandstand. This part is still the same as it was in the old days, even the grandstand. It is still a wonderful 'old school' track, very narrow like Suzuka and it goes up and down through the dunes. I only wonder if the modern F1 cars are not too big for this track to properly race and overtake.... oh wait, they can't overtake anyway! I hope they don't ruin the track with endless runoffs. Here are a few pics from that Zandvoort visit. Beautiful weather as you can see and my wife and I went to the beach later that afternoon. Good memories. Rene, Jim Clark's winning Lotus at the 1964 Dutch Grand Prix, I believe at the same corner, part of the magic of great circuits. Cheers, Carl
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Post by René on Apr 20, 2019 12:20:19 GMT
Absolutely Carl, most definitily the same spot; coming out of the Gerlachbocht into the Hugenholzbocht. This part up to Scheivlak is the same as in the old days. Old track:  New track:  |
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Post by charleselan on Apr 20, 2019 14:15:01 GMT
the trouble has been what one sees as the inequality, they have worked all their lives they are told they get less pension than an immigrant will receive in benefits and blame Europe for it, whereas this may not be true but it played to the prejudices of the many and of course the Tories who are reaping the financial rewards for their endeavours whilst the rest of the country struggle are fuelling the rise of the right and the lies the people who campaigned to leave Europe were sold effectively and their personal gain has been at the price of stupidity - and for those who think otherwise Messer F is on a 3/4 million pound a year pension from the EU - aw bless Jim, I have looked through my ancestry to see if I can obtain a European passport but have failed, so may look at a more drastic option - well maybe not - We are straying off into politics here, but as Brexit could affect motor racing, and certainly affects some of the racers around our table, I guess Rene is okay with it? It seems bizarre that the situation in the UK is causing a rise in right wing politics, when similar circumstances in the relatively recent past lead to a shift to the left, and for a few decades a more equal society. Good luck finding a personal solution to the chaos of Brexit, if all else fails, there are always the Antipodes! Jim, I would most definitely have considered New Zealand as a place to emigrate, alternative to France. Probably better in many respects as it is a beautiful and diverse country and a common language, however I felt that I was too old for such a mammoth move, had i been in my thirties/forties then no contest. What will be, will be as the saying goes, but it doesn't look promising currently. I still love the UK as it is my natural home but it really has descended into a third world state in so many ways, the state of the roads is an utter disgrace and the decomposition of town centres is another sad sight. However far more important is the huge disparity between those that have, and those that do not; and the centralisation around London to the detriment of many other parts of the UK. No matter what the spin doctors put out that was nothing to do with the EU, but British Governments and their self seeking interests. JC |
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Post by charleselan on Apr 20, 2019 14:16:39 GMT
Absolutely Carl, most definitily the same spot; coming out of the Gerlachbocht into the Hugenholzbocht. This part up to Scheivlak is the same as in the old days. Old track: New track: René, That still looks like a very good race circuit with a lot of its original charm and challenge. It will be a very popular inclusion on the F1 calendar. JC |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 21:34:36 GMT
Absolutely Carl, most definitily the same spot; coming out of the Gerlachbocht into the Hugenholzbocht. This part up to Scheivlak is the same as in the old days. Old track: New track: Hey Rene, Maybe you can fill us in on some of the names of the corners? I've heard of Arie Luyendijk from CART & indy racing, but don't know who Hans Ernst or Rob Slotemaker are. How did Slotemaker superceed Jan de Wijker, and what is the story behind the fabously named 'Tarzan curve' (I'm guessing bocht is curve?) |
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Post by Carl on Apr 21, 2019 3:19:21 GMT
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Post by mikael on Apr 21, 2019 8:14:39 GMT
Thank you Carl - very interesting discussion of the Tarzan curve and its banking. It makes you wonder if more banked corners could be "the solution" to the overtaking-difficulty problem. Maybe not (at least not completely) but it seems that it would add to the possibility of getting it all wrong - and thus to the overall excitement.
The discussion of the role of Hans Hugenholtz is interesting too. Going a bit off-tangent, I have to say, I think that he possibly may be somewhat over-credited (also) regarding the design of the Suzuka Circuit.
Below is an illustration of the design-history of Suzuka. I became aware of this design-plan history from a cushion I have - bought at Suzuka - where all these layout suggestions are printed. (Hence I became interested in looking further into the design history.)
(In the above figure, Showa year 35 = 1960, Showa year 36 = 1961, ...)
Below is a similar (and slightly better) figure from another source; but it seems that the date for design # 2 is wrong. It seems OK in the first figure.
The figure captions - from top to bottom - are as follows: Fig. 1: 26 August 1960. Initial plan. (Design: Shiozaki (or Shiosaki))
Fig. 2: 16 January 1961(*). Revised plan after visits to a number of European circuits. (Design: Shiozaki)
Fig. 3: 29 January 1961. Plan drawn by Mr. Hugenholtz.
Fig. 4: 29 May 1961. Construction plan after investigation of the actual construction site.
Fig. 5: 15 January 1962: Final layout plan. (Design: Shiozaki)
(*) Using here the date given in the first (yellowish) figure.
Thus, according to these sources, the initial layout was drawn by a certain Mr. Shiozaki/Shiosaki in the summer of 1960. It seems that Hugenholtz then came aboard the project as a consultant early in 1961, being responsible for "the esses" (or "the S-curves") - in place of an overly convoluted section - as well as the reshaping of a number of other turns, in particular the Spoon Curve (the left-most curve in the figures).
Hugenholtz's expertise has without a doubt been priceless in getting "everything right"; but is seems that he did not draw the circuit from scratch.
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Post by mikael on Apr 21, 2019 10:03:43 GMT
Ref. the (slightly) banked Tarzan curve:
The subject of banked corners is quite interesting. After the discussion here, in relation to the beautiful photos from the 1955 Italian GP (in the "Beauty and the beast" thread) and on the different lines taken by Moss and Fangio on Monza's bankings, I had a look into Taruffi's "The Technique of Motor Racing" (1959) to see what he has to say on the subject.
He says basically the same (as what is written in relation to the Tarzan Curve, in the link given by Carl), that there is no ideal line as such, that one does not "cut corners", and that one does not take any special line. In one sense, he says, the ideal line is at the height that matches to the speed of the car, such that it can go around the banking "hands off" (i.e. without holding the steering wheel). But an interesting fact is that, even in the 50's, the Grand Prix cars could go faster than the maximum possible "hands off" speed - so the drivers had to be careful not to run over the upper edge. (It happened to some, e.g. to Jean Behra at the Avus Circuit.) Driving up high, the radial load on the tyres (as well as the load on the suspension) was high, and the sideways load was low. Driving down low, it was the opposite. So apparently, where to drive depended on a "gut feeling" of where the force balance was ideal with respect to maintaining a high speed vs. where it was least hard on the material.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 10:20:31 GMT
Thanks Carl, Thats a really interesting read, Van Alpen sounds like a great character, and a heck of a negotiator. It addressed, Hans Ernst, and Hans Hugenholtz, but what about Rob Locksmith and how he has userped Jan de Wijker? I would however like to speculate that 'Tarzan' came about because you swing through it yodelling like Johnny Weismuller? (He was Austrian, was there a Dutch Tarzan?) |
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Post by Carl on Apr 21, 2019 18:47:18 GMT
Thanks Carl, Thats a really interesting read, Van Alpen sounds like a great character, and a heck of a negotiator. It addressed, Hans Ernst, and Hans Hugenholtz, but what about Rob Locksmith and how he has userped Jan de Wijker? I would however like to speculate that 'Tarzan' came about because you swing through it yodelling like Johnny Weismuller? (He was Austrian, was there a Dutch Tarzan?) Possible clue: Talented driver and yodeler Hans Stuck Jr. still annoys his mountain neighbors and searches for the ideal Jane |
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