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Post by Carl on Nov 14, 2019 21:04:44 GMT
I understand this movie is pretty good and reasonably accurate. My main concern is whether it portrays Carroll Shelby as the consummate con artist he was. He deserves praise for two great ideas, the original Cobra and the B-Production Mustang GT-350, which attracted many talented people to his company whose achievements 'Ol Shel often claimed as his own.
The movie's about a wonderful period in racing, a time when a corporate dullard (Henry Ford ll) paid a Texas con artist to gain the upper hand on one from Maranello. If it's more or less accurate, I'll enjoy it.
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Post by charleselan on Nov 15, 2019 17:21:59 GMT
Carl,
To be honest I did not ever associate Shelby with the success of the Ford GT; GT40; Mk11 and Mk IV as it was never ever described as such in the UK publications. Yes! Everyone banged on about him being the leading force behind the Cobra and tuned Mustangs but the Le Mans project(s)?
I like your description of him as a "con artist", that would make a good movie in its own right.
For me the Ford Le Mans project was lead by some excellent designers and developers lead initially by the design of Eric Broadley and then by the intensive testing work done by the likes of Bruce McLaren; Dan Gurney and Ken Miles etc.
John Charles
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Post by Carl on Nov 15, 2019 17:43:33 GMT
Carl, To be honest I did not ever associate Shelby with the success of the Ford GT; GT40; Mk11 and Mk IV as it was never ever described as such in the UK publications. Yes! Everyone banged on about him being the leading force behind the Cobra and tuned Mustangs but the Le Mans project(s)? I like your description of him as a "con artist", that would make a good movie in its own right. For me the Ford Le Mans project was lead by some excellent designers and developers lead initially by the design of Eric Broadley and then by the intensive testing work done by the likes of Bruce McLaren; Dan Gurney and Ken Miles etc. John Charles John Charles, I think Carroll Shelby Enterprises Inc. still active publicity department originated that fallacy. Publicity agencies are breeding grounds for delusion.
I agree completely with you regarding where credit belongs.
Cheers, Carl
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Post by Carl on Nov 16, 2019 0:44:59 GMT
This letter from Ken Miles was published in the August 1943 issue of Motor Sport. It's taken from the current MS online article about Henry Ford II's obsessive quest for revenge against Enzo Ferrari.
Sir,
Judging from several of the letters that have been written by my fellow-readers to your most excellent journal, I imagine that few people in this country are familiar with the recent trend of American engine design. Don't get me wrong; I am a vintage enthusiast first and foremost, yet in my work I have to deal with a lot of American vehicles and the design of some of them shows great promise from a sporting point of view.
Look at this specification:– 6-cylinder o.h.v. engine, bore 3 23/32 in., stroke 3 13/16 in., compression ratio 6.15 to 1. Hemispherical cylinder heads with inclined push rod operated valves. Die-cast pistons with domed semi-deflector heads to give a good combustion chamber shape. Short stiff con. rods with very large big-end bearings and fully floating pressure lubricated gudgeon pins.
Camshaft machined all over, pressure lubricated bearings, drive by large fibre helical spur gear, also pressure lubricated. Inserted valve seats, and exhaust valve with a head of different metal from the stem, the joint being fused just below the valve head. Valve timing: Inlet opens 2.8° before t.d.c.; closes 68° after b.d.c. Exhaust opens 78° before b.d.c.; closes 45° after t.d.c. 72° of overlap.
Crankshaft a beautifully clean forging carried on very large main bearings. The clutch is a cunning device without springs or withdrawal arms, both of these being replaced by a heavy diaphragm which does both jobs.
When one considers that this is a trade engine and that the finish on it is really very good, and that the cooling system and porting are both excellent, it would seem to be an engine possessing great possibilities as a post-war power plant.
After the war a supercharged version is going into a four-wheel drive trials job of my own design, and we shall see what happens.
I am, Yours etc.,
K. H. Miles, S/Sgt.
Home Forces.
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Post by chrisb on Nov 16, 2019 11:30:14 GMT
as an Aston Martin fan I initially associate Shelby with the 1959 Le Mans Victory and his subsequent retirement due to a heart condition- the original Ac Cobra was a beast of a machine and I loved it, but my favourite was the Daytona Cobra and note that a book of these beauties is selling for £800 on ebye - ouch!
I must admit I don't know enough of Shelby to understand the extent of his legend but I think I will now start looking into this guy's life, [any literary recommendations?], although MS have printed a couple of stories that confirm my existing knowledge around Lola and of course I am aware of Lotus's peeved reaction, and the actually race, which I do have race reports on I think a bit more research may be in order
John that is a classic letter and very interesting, Ken was certainly someone very special,
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Post by Carl on Nov 20, 2019 1:49:49 GMT
I went to see the movie about Ford's effort to supplant Ferrari at LeMans, called "Ford v Ferrari" here, and it's very good overall. "LeMans '66" is a better title but would confuse many here. The racing scenes are well done for Hollywood, prompting only a few muted groans (speedometers in GT-40 Mk.II prototypes / drivers glaring at each other at 210 mph). The story is accurate by Hollywood standards and the screenplay outstanding, but most impressive is the acting of Christian Bale, Matt Damon and the major supporting actors. I recommend it for race fans. I expected that Carroll Shelby would be referred to as a designer, and thanks to his still active publicity department he receives full and false credit. The only appearance of Lola is on a model kit on a shelf in the bedroom of Ken Mile's son. Carroll Shelby was an effective team leader who supervised the development of a car fast and reliable enough to win the 24 Hours of LeMans. Ken Miles and Phil Remington are accurately portrayed as essential, but other engineers and test drivers are given second billing.
Phil Remington and Dan Gurney at LeMans in 1966
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Post by mikael on Nov 20, 2019 2:05:54 GMT
Thank you Carl, it sounds promising. You have convinced me to go and see it; but it has not yet arrived at these far Eastern shores. I have just checked that it is scheduled to appear at our local cinema but - for all of Japan - only from January 10.
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Post by Carl on Nov 20, 2019 4:52:29 GMT
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Post by charleselan on Nov 20, 2019 15:50:00 GMT
Thanks for the summary Carl and so pleased to hear that you enjoyed the film and that its quality was of a very good standard. I think that Christian Bale and Matt Damon are excellent modern day actors; Bale never ceases to amaze me with the variety of parts that he plays with such dexterity. I did here a brief criticism of Christian Bale's "Cockney" accent in the film which puzzled me a bit as i viewed a short interview with him and Matt Damon about the making of the film that appeared on YouTube and he speaks with a pronounced London accent himself anyway. I had no clue that Ken Miles spoke with a "Cockney" accent himself as i always thought he would have had quite a "Posh" spoken voice, so I got that wrong!
I must therefore seek out the film and give it a viewing.
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Post by Carl on Nov 20, 2019 16:14:41 GMT
Thanks for the summary Carl and so pleased to hear that you enjoyed the film and that its quality was of a very good standard. I think that Christian Bale and Matt Damon are excellent modern day actors; Bale never ceases to amaze me with the variety of parts that he plays with such dexterity. I did here a brief criticism of Christian Bale's "Cockney" accent in the film which puzzled me a bit as i viewed a short interview with him and Matt Damon about the making of the film that appeared on YouTube and he speaks with a pronounced London accent himself anyway. I had no clue that Ken Miles spoke with a "Cockney" accent himself as i always thought he would have had quite a "Posh" spoken voice, so I got that wrong! I must therefore seek out the film and give it a viewing. John Charles, I still remember how impressive Christian Bale was as a child actor in "Empire of the Sun" by Steven Spielberg. As Ken Miles, he derived his accent from somewhere mysterious to me, but you and others will know about it for sure. Matt Damon nailed his beautifully, sounding exactly like Carroll Shelby's Texas twang. Both are outstanding in the film and there's a good chance both will be nominated for their acting.
-Carl
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Post by René on Nov 20, 2019 20:33:38 GMT
Thanks for the review Carl. I plan to go one of these days and I am really looking forward to it, now even more!
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Post by charleselan on Nov 21, 2019 17:05:35 GMT
Thanks for the summary Carl and so pleased to hear that you enjoyed the film and that its quality was of a very good standard. I think that Christian Bale and Matt Damon are excellent modern day actors; Bale never ceases to amaze me with the variety of parts that he plays with such dexterity. I did here a brief criticism of Christian Bale's "Cockney" accent in the film which puzzled me a bit as i viewed a short interview with him and Matt Damon about the making of the film that appeared on YouTube and he speaks with a pronounced London accent himself anyway. I had no clue that Ken Miles spoke with a "Cockney" accent himself as i always thought he would have had quite a "Posh" spoken voice, so I got that wrong! I must therefore seek out the film and give it a viewing. John Charles, I still remember how impressive Christian Bale was as a child actor in "Empire of the Sun" by Steven Spielberg. As Ken Miles, he derived his accent from somewhere mysterious to me, but you and others will know about it for sure. Matt Damon nailed his beautifully, sounding exactly like Carroll Shelby's Texas twang. Both are outstanding in the film and there's a good chance both will be nominated for their acting.
-Carl
Carl, I have been doing a bit of delving on the internet to try and find out more about Ken Miles; this film has really brought him too the fore and not before time. From what i have read he was actually born in Birmingham or to enlarge an area of the Uk known as The Midlands. Natives from that city and surrounding area have a pronounced dialect often referred to as "Brummy". If you saw the little film I posted in the "Sidecar" thread you would have heard the great Jeff Smith (two time 500cc Motocross World Champion) and he is a distinct "Brummy" although Jeffrey was actually born in Lancashire, hence the Red Rose on his helmet. His parents moved to Birmingham when he was very young so he picked up the dialect of his new home. So Ken Miles may have spoken with a "Brummy" accent or something similar. The reason why I felt originally that he may have had a very "Posh" accent was due to his placement as a tank commander, and these positions usually went to the well bred . We need to have a book written about this amazing man who after all was flaming quick at the age of 48 years when competing at Le Mans in 1966. John Charles
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Post by Carl on Nov 21, 2019 22:45:01 GMT
John Charles, I found this short promotional filmed at Riverside with Ken Miles sounding very cultured. Contrary to narrator Lloyd Bridges, I did not recognize actor James Drury, but I'm sure it's Carroll Shelby saying, "She's ready to roll, Ken". The elevated shot of the wide one mile back straight was taken from the platform above the Champion Bridge. Other scenes briefly show the slowest of the fast esses approaching and then through the double apex Turn 6, at that time having a bright white early armco barrier.
-Carl
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Post by charleselan on Nov 22, 2019 11:50:35 GMT
John Charles, I found this short promotional filmed at Riverside with Ken Miles sounding very cultured. Contrary to narrator Lloyd Bridges, I did not recognize actor James Drury, but I'm sure it's Carroll Shelby saying, "She's ready to roll, Ken". The elevated shot of the wide one mile back straight was taken from the platform above the Champion Bridge. Other scenes briefly show the slowest of the fast esses approaching and then through the double apex Turn 6, at that time having a bright white early armco barrier.
-Carl
Carl, That is a great little film clip and by all accounts a rare footage of Ken Miles voice. It confirms that he actually spoke in what my grandmother would have described as "well spoken" English. Which means that it was not necessarily the term "posh" which is associated with the landed gentry and public school educated clique; I use the term educated advisedly. Ken Miles sounds more like the British film stars of the 1930/40 and 50's and certainly not a "Brummie". Interestingly the comments below the film contain similar thoughts to my own from the more rational and sensible contributors, a stark contrast to what one normally encounters on YouTube as the comments within that platform are normally more inane and toxic than the MS forum. Wasn't James Drury from the western series The Virginian? John Charles
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Post by chrisb on Nov 22, 2019 15:07:48 GMT
great little clip, I am sure I have seen another Ken Miles's documentary sometime possibly involving his son as well, but for the life of me cannot remember where or what, but that is how I would tend to recollect his accent, which, especially in England is always a source of local pride, or irritation and in a lot of cases disguise. For a Brummie accent I would always think Ozzy Osbourne but within London and surrounding counties please don't think cockney, there are actually a very small number of actual cockneys and come from a very small part of London and if my memory serves me the great actor Claude Rains came from the East End but developed a wonderfully crafted accent that bears no relationship with his birth area. As your Grandmother [and similar to mine ] would have said John Ken was well-spoken and we would have said that his accent was 'not-effected' which is rather false. Something I am seeing far too regularly - local accents are very good to me
yes James Drury was best known as the Virginian, where Doug McLure was possibly the better known, but James was also in the King's 1st film, Love me Tender.
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