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Post by mikael on Oct 10, 2018 10:59:36 GMT
Lucio, my comment was initiated first and foremost by seeing the mentioned documentary about Formula 4 (the Japanese Championship - but I imagine the level is similar elsewhere) ; I found that the level is very much "over the top", considering it's supposed to be the first step after karting. It's like a scaled-down version of Super Formula - it appears to be just as professional. It's "too much too young" for kids aged 15, in my opinion. After this I read the related comments of Vettel (on grandprix.com); and in the light of the documentary they really made sense.
I understand that 135cc karting at the international level economically easily could be "a bottomless hole". The two Danes I mentioned were not youngsters; they were in their late 20s in the mentioned year (1978). For them karting was a hobby, and they did not aim for higher categories.
The meaning of the mentioned 100cc-135kg class was that driver + kart should weigh at least 135kg. So they were "big guys" for a gearless 100cc - and it was certainly not as "sharp" as the elite 135cc (gearless) class, featuring future F1 stars. Yet it was a respectable international field, and the European championship in that class was well-respected. The "250cc with gear" class was similar; it was also not like the elite 135cc class; yet well-respected too.
P.S. Aage Søndergaard was a mechanical engineer who constructed and built (and sold) his own kart-make, called "Sonderkart". It was a very unique design, using an A-shaped frame. Søndergaard won the European Championship with this design (yet customers were probably quite conservative and as far as I know, financially the "Sonderkart" company was not that succesful).
(The photo is from a facebook page called "100 ccm Karting - Danmark". It shows a nicely restored 1980 Sonderkart.)
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Post by charleselan on Oct 10, 2018 11:23:30 GMT
Jamie, great to hear from you and as usual you make a lot of sense, however, always a, however, my word, anyway- my favourite commentators of all sports were those whose were unbiased, the late and great Bill McLaren was the epitome of impartiality - even against his beloved Scots- one of the things that drives me nuts is a commentator who has a favourite, aka Dorna and Steve Day and his sychophantic admiration of Marquez, now, I don't listen to sxy and am relieved I don't, but C4 and DC are equally at fault, although as DC is also a producer of the C4 F1 show I don't think that will change, but, for me, it is the job of the commentator to commentate on what is happening, sorry I don't want your opinion, I probably out of principal disagree with it anyway but the pundit, again I don't want your opinion I want your observation as to what is happening, why did Seb try that overtake for instance, which Mark Hughes gives an excellent explanation which explains all, I want to know about the thinking and the reality of what and why someone did something, Actually I would rather Hamilton et al retire and a lot of new drivers descend upon F1 - along with the manufacturers disappearing from the grid - ah well This commentary thing has often been something of a great discussion point for us in the past and long may it continue. I agree that Bill McLaren was a truly great commentator, although i did not hear him often enough as i despise the sport of Rugby. I always loved listening to John Arlott and Fred Truman on the radio for cricket and Brian Johnson was pretty epic at times, and who will ever forget that amazing comedic bit with John Agnew. As I have said many times before it just has to be Raymond Baxter for motor racing for he was the doyen and always will be. For motorcycle racing in the late 1950's early 1960's Graham Walker (Murray's father) was excellent as well. Today for me at any rate none come remotely close to Jack Burnacle and James Whitham from Eurosport BSB coverage. Jack gets things wrong at times and you just have to smile and utter something like "come on Jack you prat, keep up" but it isn't annoying like those fools on all the other commentary teams. James Whitham is outstanding as the expert pundit as he knows his stuff and has this amazing sense of humour which often comes to the fore. The main issue with the expert pundit role in F1 coverage, be it S*Y or C4, is the fact that they are not switched on enough and keep repeating their phrases that keep them employed. The best ever motor racing pundit was none other than JYS; the man was just so sharp and incisive, he actually knew what was going on immediately and expressed it perfectly. This has never been more apparent than in the film "Day of the Champion" in which he tells Roman Polanski exactly what F3 drivers are doing, or what they should be doing when they were observing a practice session at Monaco.
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Post by René on Oct 10, 2018 12:47:10 GMT
I didn’t think I’d say this but I want to see Hamilton in a red car.........no excuses then and what a story that would be. Cool. Me too Jamie!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 12:53:10 GMT
Beautiful, Mikael.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 12:59:28 GMT
95 today. Happy one, Murray.
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Post by chrisb on Oct 10, 2018 16:03:40 GMT
wonderful threads chaps,
of course Lucio, bit of a throwaway comment really, I guess because I fear even Max won't get anywhere close to Lewis, nothing against Lewis per se, and maybe if he does go to the red cars I might think differently, it's a bit like at the moment he is so far ahead of the opposition he has no opposition, maybe if Ferrari or Honda improve to create a championship worthy of the name I would will him on, but at present he is simply too far ahead. Comparisons with previous number ones are interesting - had Jimmy had a reliable car and won everything he entered I may have thought the same but he didn't and at times he got into a real scrap. Michael was the only other one who so completely dominated a time it just got too predictable. As for wanting newer younger talented drivers - it is a breath of fresh air that I am seeking- not paid for by Daddy but are there on merit.
best wishes to a real star though, thank you for reminding us of the great Muddly Talker, who, as a human being, I have the utmost respect for,
John, Raymond Baxter does a brilliant documentary on the 1958 season, another tragic season that blighted some fantastic racing, and he will always remain my favourite motor racing commentator
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Post by René on Oct 10, 2018 16:05:20 GMT
Some more Japanese flavour...
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Post by Carl on Oct 10, 2018 16:22:35 GMT
Jamie, great to hear from you and as usual you make a lot of sense, however, always a, however, my word, anyway- my favourite commentators of all sports were those whose were unbiased, the late and great Bill McLaren was the epitome of impartiality - even against his beloved Scots- one of the things that drives me nuts is a commentator who has a favourite, aka Dorna and Steve Day and his sychophantic admiration of Marquez, now, I don't listen to sxy and am relieved I don't, but C4 and DC are equally at fault, although as DC is also a producer of the C4 F1 show I don't think that will change, but, for me, it is the job of the commentator to commentate on what is happening, sorry I don't want your opinion, I probably out of principal disagree with it anyway but the pundit, again I don't want your opinion I want your observation as to what is happening, why did Seb try that overtake for instance, which Mark Hughes gives an excellent explanation which explains all, I want to know about the thinking and the reality of what and why someone did something, Actually I would rather Hamilton et al retire and a lot of new drivers descend upon F1 - along with the manufacturers disappearing from the grid - ah well Chris, I agree. Favoritism of announcers and also false dramatics, probably mandated by the broadcast network, are amateurish. Know the sport and tell us what's happening. We can supply our own excitement. Sports broadcast networks have no idea how to broadcast sport and are the fools they consider their audience to be.
In America, Bob Varsha lost his position because he wouldn't pretend to be astounded every three minutes. Low intelligence and high volume are what the network wanted.
Cheers, Carl
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Post by Jamie on Oct 10, 2018 17:02:30 GMT
I must say that I wouldn’t miss crofty’s histeronics...
Brundle is excellent and I like Damon Hill also.
The one guy I really like is John Watson, he was superb on Eurosport years ago and I enjoy his recent GT racing stuff.
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Post by Carl on Oct 10, 2018 17:20:40 GMT
I must say that I wouldn’t miss crofty’s histeronics... Brundle is excellent and I like Damon Hill also. The one guy I really like is John Watson, he was superb on Eurosport years ago and I enjoy his recent GT racing stuff. I agree completely. Martin Brundle, Damon Hill and John Watson are all superb.
Some time in the distant future a network may accidentally combine the very best announcers and commentators and we'll all be able to die happy
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Post by charleselan on Oct 10, 2018 17:50:22 GMT
John Watson was, and is, outstanding, but sadly he is now of the wrong age demographic, that said with in accordance of the so called "power's that be".
If one were to take the shackles of S*YF1 from Damon Hill he would be exceptional, great personality with a clear and analytical mind. There is not a lot to dislike about Martin Brundle, just ditch the bloody grid walk which is a total embarrassment when ever i have watched it.
Moving on.
That picture of Richie Ginther in the first 3 litre F1 Honda is superb. Richie was a great development driver and a sound choice by Honda at the time. Sadly the car was not competitive as it was way too heavy, and hugely over engineered. Apparently it was said that the V12 motor weighed more than a complete Lotus, maybe a tad over egged but not far off. Such a shame as the final 1.5 litre Honda F1 car was just getting into its stride when that formula came to a close.
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Post by Carl on Oct 10, 2018 19:52:34 GMT
I once enjoyed the novelty of Robin Miller moving fast down the grid at Champ Car races, but now avoid it and am grateful that coverage here begins after Martin Brundle has been obliged to embarrass himself. The grid walk should include a military Hummer with snowplow at maximum revs in first gear.
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Post by Jamie on Oct 10, 2018 20:49:35 GMT
Agreed chaps....I’d have dropped the grid walk years ago, I bet Martin hates it deep down.
And on the subject of Honda, did anyone see MPH’s comment that the new Honda was turned down for Suzuka to ensure reliability and that it will be unshackled at the next race? 15bhp down on Merc / Ferrari was quoted after dyno tests. If that’s true, it makes Zak Brown’s decision even more regrettable.....
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Post by chrisb on Oct 11, 2018 9:25:51 GMT
reading the above merely confirms my earlier assertion, the comments are far more interesting than the racing
totally agree Jamie I still read Mark's comments - he really does give an unparalleled insight into the workings of F1, despite my initial misgivings he has developed into a first-class journalist who even Jenks would approve of. I do not fathom McLaren at all, it is rudderless and we talk of Ferrari's problem but compared to McLaren it is a smooth sailing ship, how daft was that of McLaren to ditch a special relationship for a customer engine? Unless there is a longer-term strategy we are not aware of McLaren are in their current state, history.
I found the F1 grid walks nauseating and have done so for years, in fact cringing is probably a better description and again BSB shows the way to do it well, the great James Witham shows how to talk to riders and teams when they are getting themselves prepared, deferential - focused and respectful, whereas DC et al try to be 'funny' which is like me trying to make a joke with an ex-Mother-in-law, and about as successful.
Wattie was one of the very best co-commentators ever! What I like about him and anything I see of Damon is their down to earth perspective and respect for their listeners. But for me the worst ever 'expert' was Jonathon Palmer who was so patronising it was embarrassing, thankfully Dr. Jonathon has found a better career, I did like JYS because of his knowledge and IMHO unparalleled insight as to what a driver was doing, He was very impressive in his understanding, not bad for a kid deemed 'thick' because of his dyslexia and leaving school at 14, There was a time Martin was the lead commentator and I think he was really good and Croft on the radio was ok, funny but obviously his paymasters want hysterics - presumably because they don't have confidence in the series.
Does anyone know audience viewing figures in Italy since it became pay-per-view? I know MotoGP went from over 2million to less than 400,000 when BT took over. I don't know the UK's viewing figures as I write but they can't be good reading for Liberty, wonder when they will ring their bell?
1965 F1, technically, was a really good year, the 32 valve Coventry Climax, the flat 12 Ferrari and the transverse V12 of Honda plus the V8's of BRM and Ferrari all going in a good way, was there a 16 cylinder Coventry Climax planned? and in a way, although I rejoice at the return of power, with Honda finally coming good, [shame McLaren didn't take note] and so many tyre manufacturers involved, we could have done with another year, but then I did love 66 and 67
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2018 9:42:15 GMT
I don't know the audience figures in Italy for pay-per-view, according to the link below the global viewership drop (by 4%) is down to the Italian figures, without which the global figures would have increased (by 3%). Quite significant, unsurprisingly. I have already said that when grand slam tennis went on pay-per-view in Italy, tennis disappeared from public discourse. This is Carey talking, so they are aware of the issue. TBH, I just don't care anymore, they can keep what's left of the so-called "sport" for themselves. www.racefans.net/2018/08/10/f1-audience-drop-pay-tv-move-carey/
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