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Post by chrisb on Oct 9, 2018 12:40:22 GMT
Mikael, love the photos, there really is something special about Suzuka and those sweeping curves, and those wonderful Honda power units or engines in old money, excellent, thank you for sharing
So agree with you Mikael, when I look at the junior series now I struggle to get my head around the sheer professionalism of it all, and just how important it all is, to whom I am not always convinced, but where's the fun?? It just feels all so serious
Rob, your story is so similar to so many tales of woe I have heard, I went via a nightmare called a Cayenne whose manufacturer seemed to have a strange translation for reliability, it wasn't, so went and got a boyhood choice and quite frankly it is superb, two of my friends bought later versions but the Jag XF is great, so comfortable and such a brilliant driving position, I did want the car I first recollect but sadly whilst my late and dear Grandfather could afford an XK150 sadly I cannot...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 13:23:17 GMT
RE Vettel complains about the “wealthiest and well connected”. I am a slightly bemused. Perhaps some idle talk quoted out of context.
Racing cars have always been for those with a budget, either from the family or from sponsors. Senna is an example of the former, while Prost of the latter. Competitive karting has always been beyond the means of any average family, a well without end, sustainable in the long term only if someone is seriously talented and thus from a certain point on capable to attract some external (to the family) support. Connections can be and usually are made when there is serious talent, however it is natural that some fall through "the cracks" in motorsport, it is a pyramid with a narrow bottle neck at the top, it has always been thus and very, very few make it. It is not like athletics where one has only to run on his feet to prove himself against time. Motorsport is far more multi-dimensional than that and requires expensive (and competitive) mechanical means, not everybody can be supplied with coming up the ranks. It is what it is. People like Stroll have always gotten to F1, but so far have never become "aces", i.e. the ultimate step of the ladder has not been for sale - so far.
This is taken from Vettel’s entry in wikipedia:
It seems he was a professional racing driver from the age of 11, at least. What is he talking about?
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Post by mikael on Oct 9, 2018 14:38:27 GMT
RE Vettel complains about the “wealthiest and well connected”. I am a slightly bemused. Perhaps some idle talk quoted out of context.
Vettel has a good grasp of motor racing history. He may possibly feel that the situation (in karting) has gone from bad to worse - from bad in his own time. .
I believe that in the late 1970's and early 1980's, it was still possible to compete at European top level (in karting) on an average salary.
I recall two Danes who were both European Champions in karting in 1978, Aage Sondergaard in 100cc (in the 135kg class) and Poul V. Pedersen in 250cc. The latter was also 2nd in the World Championship in 1980. Both were privateers, without significant sponsors.
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Post by René on Oct 9, 2018 15:23:47 GMT
Many very good comments and interesting posts above. I had not much time to join in but enjoyed reading them all! Mikael, great pictures again! I enjoyed the atmosphere shots the most as these best show how it was. It's a great track and the fans are the best! Thanks again for sharing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 15:26:18 GMT
Between 1980 and 1982 I followed friends, based in Rome, racing in karting and believe me it wasn't cheap, at all. They too raced 135cc, the ones with gearbox. They owned their own business, they weren't kids.
Stefano Modena, I mentioned this already, was there a few times on his 100cc too (no gearbox, the series for those who went "upwards" - De Angelis, Cheever, Patrese), had a van full of spare engines and Bridgestone tyre sets. He was effectively a professional. Can't see that within reach of any normal family.
Went around also a couple of years in Formula Fiat Abarth and F2000 (F3 of the previous year, we had the ex-Alesi Dallara he used the year before in the French series) and both "daddies" who paid for their sons were not the middle class sort of guy, they had serious money to throw away without blinking a moment.
With respect, your average family must a hell lot richer than that in my neck of the woods. Besides, it seems those two guys you mention didn't make it much further.
The likes of Vettel and Hamilton, it appears for the little I may know they didn't come from rich families - Hamilton's father for example had to have three jobs at the time to keep his son going - but at a certain point they had to meet Red Bull or Ron Dennis to make it further, else someone else would have made it in their place. Nico, like Mick Schumacher now, was always going to make it instead, provided he was quick enough.
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 9, 2018 17:04:43 GMT
Money and connections. How many World Champions or former F1 drivers had their sons come through and race? Off the top of my head Hill, Stewart, Brabham, Surtees, Piquet x2, Alesi, Andretti x 2 generations, Rosberg, Villeneuve.
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Post by charleselan on Oct 9, 2018 17:24:46 GMT
Money and connections. How many World Champions or former F1 drivers had their sons come through and race? Off the top of my head Hill, Stewart, Brabham, Surtees, Piquet x2, Alesi, Andretti x 2 generations, Rosberg, Villeneuve. Off the top of my head I could add:- Prost; Phil Hill; Dan Gurney; Jan Magnussen; Wilson Fittipaldi (2 Generations?); Lauda; Scheckter; Stuck; Bell; Ickx;
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Post by Jamie on Oct 9, 2018 18:45:50 GMT
I can confirm that karting is not cheap 😁 You can still go club racing on a budget but it’s still quite a commitment if you want to be in with a chance of winning. Of course you can do it on a shoestring and play with other similarly minded folk but some guys are spending serious money in club karting. It’s always been thus of course and when I was club karting in the 90’s I was competing against Charles Saatchi (yes that Charles Saatchi)......he wasn’t spending peanuts I can tell you 😁
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Post by Jamie on Oct 9, 2018 19:17:02 GMT
Interesting thread this one, Ferrari’s season has tailed off to a whimper which is disappointing as we all love a fight to the finish and I know how this must annoy the Ferrari fans amongst us......it’s not good is it. I don’t see any conspiracy or orchistration myself as I’m inclined to believe that it would be pro Ferrari if that was happening. I’m sure liberty would love for the red cars to win, the Merc run of titles can’t be that good for ‘the product’. Regarding Ferrari’s loss of the advantage they seemed to hold a few races back, I do think something may have happened and the FIA picked up on something that was maybe marginal and asked them to change it. Sort of like the Haas floor situation.....they (FIA) weren’t happy with something and advised them accordingly and perhaps they’ve changed something that has had a small effect. I certainly don’t think they had something blatantly illegal but something that sailed close to the wind and the powers that be had a ‘word’..... However this is pure conjecture on my part and I think that Merc have also worked so hard on the car to bring up the performance, this combined with Hamilton’s fantastic driving have taken the wind from the red sails....
Also, on the subject of the Sky coverage, I’m still of the opinion that it’s a British based broadcast so a natural leaning towards the Brits is fairly obviously going to happen but I don’t think it’s particularly outrageous, we’ve heard before that it’s as bad in other countries output so it’s far from sky centric......I do understand that it’s broadcast in other countries but it’s essentially a British programme so I don’t understand the fuss to be honest. That’s obviously easy to say as a Brit......I can see how it might irritate but..... Having said that, I thought Paul DiResta was a disgrace this weekend, he obviously has some sort of problem with Vettel and his bias was ridiculous. I’ll be glad when Brundle is back!
Seb is getting a hard time at the moment, unfairly I feel. Yes he’s made mistakes this year but this is the high pressure world of F1 with the added frisson of trying to win a championship at the fabled Ferrari team, this must ramp up the pressure a good few notches, especially when they are imploding behind the scenes (if we are to believe certain reports). The championship is over now, maybe Ferrari will get it together next year......I think changes are required for that to happen.
I didn’t think I’d say this but I want to see Hamilton in a red car.........no excuses then and what a story that would be.
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Post by Carl on Oct 9, 2018 21:27:30 GMT
Interesting thread this one, Ferrari’s season has tailed off to a whimper which is disappointing as we all love a fight to the finish and I know how this must annoy the Ferrari fans amongst us......it’s not good is it. I don’t see any conspiracy or orchistration myself as I’m inclined to believe that it would be pro Ferrari if that was happening. I’m sure liberty would love for the red cars to win, the Merc run of titles can’t be that good for ‘the product’. Regarding Ferrari’s loss of the advantage they seemed to hold a few races back, I do think something may have happened and the FIA picked up on something that was maybe marginal and asked them to change it. Sort of like the Haas floor situation.....they (FIA) weren’t happy with something and advised them accordingly and perhaps they’ve changed something that has had a small effect. I certainly don’t think they had something blatantly illegal but something that sailed close to the wind and the powers that be had a ‘word’..... However this is pure conjecture on my part and I think that Merc have also worked so hard on the car to bring up the performance, this combined with Hamilton’s fantastic driving have taken the wind from the red sails.... Also, on the subject of the Sky coverage, I’m still of the opinion that it’s a British based broadcast so a natural leaning towards the Brits is fairly obviously going to happen but I don’t think it’s particularly outrageous, we’ve heard before that it’s as bad in other countries output so it’s far from sky centric......I do understand that it’s broadcast in other countries bits it’s essentially a British programme so I don’t understand the fuss to be honest. That’s obviously easy to say as a Brit......I can see how it might irritate but..... Having said that, I thought Paul DiResta was a disgrace this weekend, he obviously has some sort of problem with Vettel and his bias was ridiculous. I’ll be glad when Brundle is back! Seb is getting a hard time at the moment, unfairly I feel. Yes he’s made mistakes this year but this is the high pressure world of F1 with the added frisson of trying to win a championship at the fabled Ferrari team, this must ramp up the pressure a good few notches, especially when they are imploding behind the scenes (if we are to believe certain reports). The championship is over now, maybe Ferrari will get it together next year......I think changes are required for that to happen. I didn’t think I’d say this but I want to see Hamilton in a red car.........no excuses then and what a story that would be. Well said, Jamie, and I agree with one exception. When a broadcast goes worldwide, not to acknowledge that is a dereliction, plain and simple. It would be so easy to welcome viewers everywhere, most of whom pay for the service and are entitled to judge it. Although there was certainly good reason to complain in the past about NBCSport's coverage of Formula One, Leigh Diffey's dramatics were preferable to David Croft's silliness.
Hopefully back to common ground, an annoying aspect of all network broadcasts I've seen is the automatic interruption by every radio transmission, important or not, even when unintelligible. Why broadcast what cannot be deciphered? Back to certain agreement, I'll also be very glad when Brundle returns! His comments and trackside analysis are superb.
By the way, have you ever been told you look just like Jim Clark?
Cheers, Carl
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Post by Jamie on Oct 9, 2018 22:29:47 GMT
I think that’s a fair point Carl, they certainly could acknowledge their international viewers 👍 I’d stand by my original comment that it’s a British based service so it’s hard for them to cater to everyman, though I do see how it would irritate......I wholeheartedly stand by everyone’s right to express when things arn’t to their taste 😂
And I completely agree about the radio transmissions interrupting the commentators.....drives me mad. Nine times out of ten I can’t make out what their saying and it’s usually uninteresting if I do.....
If only I could drive like Clark Carl 😉
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 23:26:27 GMT
Having said that, I thought Paul DiResta was a disgrace this weekend, he obviously has some sort of problem with Vettel and his bias was ridiculous. I’ll be glad when Brundle is back! I didn’t think I’d say this but I want to see Hamilton in a red car.........no excuses then and what a story that would be. Di Resta beat Vettel in the F3 Euroseries, but Vettel is the multiple world champion.
And me too I would like to see Hamilton in a red car, and I hope at this point he rewrites the record books.
After which you Brits are due fifty years of drought, as far as I am concerned...
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Post by chrisb on Oct 10, 2018 7:20:48 GMT
Jamie, great to hear from you and as usual you make a lot of sense, however, always a, however, my word, anyway- my favourite commentators of all sports were those whose were unbiased, the late and great Bill McLaren was the epitome of impartiality - even against his beloved Scots- one of the things that drives me nuts is a commentator who has a favourite, aka Dorna and Steve Day and his sychophantic admiration of Marquez, now, I don't listen to sxy and am relieved I don't, but C4 and DC are equally at fault, although as DC is also a producer of the C4 F1 show I don't think that will change, but, for me, it is the job of the commentator to commentate on what is happening, sorry I don't want your opinion, I probably out of principal disagree with it anyway but the pundit, again I don't want your opinion I want your observation as to what is happening, why did Seb try that overtake for instance, which Mark Hughes gives an excellent explanation which explains all, I want to know about the thinking and the reality of what and why someone did something,
Actually I would rather Hamilton et al retire and a lot of new drivers descend upon F1 - along with the manufacturers disappearing from the grid - ah well
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 7:52:12 GMT
Actually I would rather Hamilton et al retire and a lot of new drivers descend upon F1 - along with the manufacturers disappearing from the grid - ah well Why is that, Chris, if I may? He’s having his best season, at the top of his powers, I’d say I would like to see him challenged further, next year. Perhaps someone like Max for example next year to mount a challenge to Hamilton, such that we can enjoy top quality racing. Isn’t that what we are all looking for? The top of the pops battling it out and may the best win? Then, yes, we also want new faces, more than a half of the drivers in the grid it is clear are also rans, but hopefully better new drivers, otherwise it’s change for change’s sake. If I may.
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Post by Jamie on Oct 10, 2018 8:53:53 GMT
Hi Chris, I can completely see that point of view and kind of agree, I actually quite like the sky coverage though. I can take or leave Crofty and DiResta however.
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