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Post by robmarsh on Oct 8, 2018 9:51:30 GMT
which begs the question, Lewis is the main man at the moment, Max is getting there, who else is in this bracket? A question I asked myself yesterday Chris and I came up with the same two. Ferrari are imploding again and I just don't understand why and how. They have been in the game longer than I have been alive but yet, apart from the Todt, Brawn, Byrne and Schumacher years they have been a managerial lightweight most of the time. Vettel has disappointed me. I know he is under more pressure than he should be owing to the management weakness in his team, but he is a four time world champion and is paid to keep his head in those situations. I found Paul Di Resta's constant slamming of Vettel and praising of Hamilton during the race both nauseating, demeaning and partisan. Not what a world wide feed on an international sporting event and representing many different nations should be doing. I think Kimi was right last year when he said Di Resta should stick to something he knows. I just don't think it should be commentating.
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Post by charleselan on Oct 8, 2018 11:23:36 GMT
I haven't watched the race so far, and may never do so, as I have read about it extensively, and of course the excellent comments from above. Therefore it would be somewhat out of order for me to comment on the proceedings, It would appear however that Max was up to his old tricks, especially with the Kimi incident. That seems to have shades of the similar incident with Sebastian in Mexico two years ago which lead to Herr Vettel's much talked about expletive rage. A 5 second time penalty for this transgression is absurd; leaving the track and regaining it without any consideration for the others is against the written rule, let alone smashing into another competitor and ruining his race by inflicting damage to his car. At the very least it should have been a "stop and go" penalty, but more appropriate would have been a "Black Flag", not acceptable driving, and apparently no remorse either . Sebastian is under immense pressure in my opinion, far more than any other driver. The team manager is out of his depth, and always was, and what ever is going on at Maranello is creating that pressure. If anyone honestly believes that Lewis Hamilton would be dealing with it any better, then just check his previous. The Hamilton fans are having a field day, just as they did with Nico Rosberg, who now of course, according to them was a "great driver". My earlier comments about "orchestration" relate to what I see has happened during the course of the year. Year five of MB dominance and finally we get to see someone really challenge them. Ferrari found something that gave them a big boost in performance, which was plain for all to see, however was it strictly legal or within the rules? Whether or not, it allowed for an enthralling mid season dust up between the two teams, and then out of the blue the red cars fade. The performance that was so evident up to Monza suddenly evaporated, that big extra surge of power on the straights was no more. Scribes on the internet and magazines have attributed the lack of Marlboro Ferrari pace to all sorts of things e.g. they have turned the engine down for reliability reasons, or they have suddenly lost rear end grip and are overheating the tyres. However the one thing that passes these experts bye is the fact that even if the engines were turned down they would still surely be able to capitalise in the "twin battery" boost. Also that mid season performance of the other Ferrari powered cars is not so apparent when measured against Stroll Force-MB. All this leads me to believe that behind the scenes Ferrari have been pulled back on that power issue. The question however is this, was it known to be dodgy all along but allowed to continue just to spice up the show. Or was it incompetence by the FIA in not knowing if it was legal or not. Or was the very presence of Sergio Marchionne and his hard ball leadership making the FIA think twice about clipping Ferrari's new found wings; once he had passed away that fear no longer was present. I agree about the Todt; Brawn; Byrne and Michael years Rob, and do not forget the Forghieri; Monti and Lauda/Rega years as they were pretty great.
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Post by charleselan on Oct 8, 2018 11:38:19 GMT
which begs the question, Lewis is the main man at the moment, Max is getting there, who else is in this bracket? I found Paul Di Resta's constant slamming of Vettel and praising of Hamilton during the race both nauseating, demeaning and partisan. Not what a world wide feed on an international sporting event and representing many different nations should be doing. I think Kimi was right last year when he said Di Resta should stick to something he knows. I just don't think it should be commentating. Rob, I have always disliked the S*YF1 coverage and find it to be nauseating in the extreme, and have said so many times. Martin Brundle is an exception, and other than his dire grid walk, he is always good to listen to. I have never like Paul Di Resta and cannot stomach his commentary, thankfully I have not heard his efforts from yesterday but they sound pretty bad. Unfortunately the bias of providers on a nationalistic scale is pretty much everywhere, and I cannot stand it. France is equally bad believe me, especially when they are showing the Tour de France. According to their commentators every other nations competitors are cheats and drug addicts. The UK C4 coverage just shades S*YF1, but it also takes a lot of stomaching. Coulthard has the same effect on me as Di Resta; I often wonder why he doesn't just turn up in Red Bull regalia, and bring along a dart board with Kimi's face on it to round things off. The icing on the cake this weekend (I viewed the practice on "catch up") was the appearance of Mrs Tonto Fox, about as much use as a chocolate tea pot! JC
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Post by Carl on Oct 8, 2018 16:28:53 GMT
sometimes the comments are far more interesting than the racing, there is something evocative looking at an F1 car on a majestic circuit, well, that was my initial thought until I saw Mikael's photos of Senna's and Surtees's cars, that put that into perspective. The first corner resolved the race win as far as I was concerned, Max's move on Kimi - sorry chaps- totally disagree - felt that return to the circuit reeked of Senna/ Schumacher desperation, which in a way endorses that Max is a bit special. Personally, I think it deserved him having to move over for Kimi and a stop/go penalty, not just as I considered it poor driving but also as a warning to others. Seb, I'm sorry but I cannot help but feel Teflonso would have been WDC last year and this year, and with Sebs deflation how much longer will he continue? as for Ferrari's slide, it does make you wonder. which begs the question, Lewis is the main man at the moment, Max is getting there, who else is in this bracket? Chris, Verstappen's first lap incident was a rookie mistake and he deserved a penalty. I just wish he had instead kept a cool head and those 5 seconds might have had him in second and close enough to challenge for the lead in the closing laps. It's remarkable how cool Kimi is at times like that.
Cheers, Carl
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Post by mikael on Oct 9, 2018 4:44:55 GMT
According to the news sites (grandprix.com, etc.) FIA demanded that the Ferrari engines were equipped with an additional sensor -- and then the performance plunged down to the earlier level. So this says a lot about the legality of Ferrari's ideas (whatever they were) - apparently, Ferrari themselves felt it was better to tacitly go "back to basics". On the way to Suzuka my friend and I talked about the engine power balance in F1. He likes to maintain that, "Honda is bound to succeed as they have a lot of experience with small-displacement turbo-charged engines." I agree, but only to a certain point; because F1 engine technology has now moved into completely new fields that no-one (most, at least) had expected. The engines are now much closer to diesel engines than to the previous generation turbo-charged F1, in the sense that they make use of self-ignition - at least in some "modes" - just like a diesel engine. ( See e.g. this article by Mark Hughes: www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/f1-s-power-secret ) As Hughes writes, this is an idea that was pioneered by GM, VW, and ... Mercedes. As to diesel technology, Renault is also a very experienced diesel engine manufacturer. Ferrari has connection to diesel technology too, via Fiat/Iveco. Honda, on the other hand, had their first diesel engine ready only in 2003 - and now the popularity of diesel engines has plunged down to almost zero. So their experience with diesel technology is very small. But, in short, Mercedes is miles ahead of the others regarding diesel-related research and knowledge of diesel technology. They are true pioneers. And it seems that their infrastructure is better too; they are much better, apparently, than the other F1-engine manufacturers to make direct use of this cutting edge research and technology in gasoline racing engines. So in my opinion, there's nothing "fishy" going on in F1. For Mercedes, the present formula (F1 engine regulations) is simply heavenly-sent. It just fits perfectly with what they have been doing for years for their road-car development. So, again, they are miles ahead of Ferrari, Renault, and Honda. It can't be helped. They (Mercedes) can be surpassed only in the electronics/control technology area. That's what Ferrari succeeded in doing ... almost ... for some time ... On another note, at any year in the present turbo-era I have felt that the Mercedes engines sounded differently - sounded better. This year was no different. When going up the steep hill at the esses, the Mercedes engines (and particularly the works cars) emitted a distinctive shrill, penetrating sound, clearly different from the others. They simply sounded better!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 6:44:33 GMT
Mikael, about your first paragraph, I am not sure to which plunge of performance are you referring to, the one in the Japanese weekend?
I admit I haven’t followed this last bout of ‘conspiracy’, but I think I have read diagonally in the last couple of days that the second sensor was installed around Monaco or Montreal (don’t have a clue why they did that, if it was requested by FIA, in any case ‘by whom’ is beside the point I am making), which means that Ferrari carried on to be competitive for quite a while, the whole summer in fact. Most likely, from what one can gather, their current sap in performance is not just engine related but, as usual most times, of the whole package and team organization.
As an aside, and I am not referring to you of course, why is that when Ferrari does something that seems to work then there must be something fishy, while when the others – RB before, then Merc, not to mention Brawn which were in flagrante in 2009 – they are all bloody geniuses?
I think I am qualified enough when the talk is about technology, but maybe we should suspend judgement until we are let to know details of matters very complex and usually, by the look of it, not necessarily reducible to “black and white”.
Just my pence’s worth.
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 9, 2018 6:45:13 GMT
Excellent post Mikael and it explains a lot. I wonder how much influence Mercedes had in determining which way the regulations went. As you say heaven sent for them. When they first brought out the engine in 2014 their technology was so much better than everyone else's and the benefits spiralled upwards. More power, better fuel consumption, more downforce etc etc. What hampered the other teams was the stupid token rule which meant Merc had a three year window of opportunity at least which they took full advantage of as one would expect.
WRT to Ferrari, the FIA have not put any extra sensors in since Monaco. That is according to Mark Hughes. Therefore, I dont think Ferrari have had a need to return to basics. Look how superior they were at Spa. So how come Merc have suddenly found so much more power in such a short time. Were they sitting on a power advantage all season and only decided to unleash it now? Was it done tacitly with Liberty to spice up the show? Why was Hamilton so calm this season in comparison to immediate previous ones despite him being given a bit of a hiding at one stage? Who knows? To me it just seems very odd indeed.
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Post by mikael on Oct 9, 2018 7:02:23 GMT
Mikael, about your first paragraph, I am not sure to which plunge of performance are you referring to, the one in the Japanese weekend? Lucio, my post was, admittedly, very much just "thinking out loud"; and "plunge" may be too dramatic a word. I was thinking about the performance gap, and as Rob writes, it may well be that Mercedes' performance has gone up rather than Ferrari's has gone down.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 7:10:38 GMT
Cool.
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Post by chrisb on Oct 9, 2018 7:15:35 GMT
there are more questions than answers, a cliche perhaps but true,
But it is unusual, and a bit strange, maybe contrived? but why?
reality is Mercedes are a huge car manufacturer and are in the business of selling cars etc, does F1 help this or is it inconsequential? they are pulling out of DTM and are not involved in Le Mans or rallying anymore, so what are they getting out of their involvement? is it proving that they are the best? having had a Mercedes I would disagree as there is no way I would get another one,
I guess like most aspects of life there are a number of contributing factors that have led to Ferrari not sustaining its dominance and this will rumble on and on,
When Michael dominated the shenanigans that went on were legion, Ross, how do you measure a barge board? his domination nearly killed F1 then, but it didn't - nowadays I am not so sure - Lewis isn't as revered as Michael was, Mercedes are not held in the same esteem as Ferrari, TV is going to pay-per-view and there are huge reductions in TV audiences and F1 has a poor direction - if I was to write a conspiracy theory I would suggest that Jean Todt, who, lets face it is very bright, is playing the long game in order to get F1 back under his control, and if you consider it, make F1 so financially untenable Liberty sell it back to FIA for peanuts and Jean has control again, or maybe not...
I won't watch Sxy - I miss Brundle and the 'real' DiResta and DC, because when off script they are both ok, on script it is crap
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 7:37:34 GMT
There are always more questions than answers because we are not ‘inside’ - asymmetric information - so conjectures naturally abound. When they become ‘conspiracies’, I switch off.
I haven’t watched the race as I was out and about in the city on Sunday, but I understand from the very, very little I have read that Vettel’s pace was more than enough to beat Bottas on the day, namely one of the two Mercs, had he not had his apparent contretemps. So perhaps not everything performance-wise was lost, after all.
It wasn’t the car’s performance, or alleged lack of it, in the last four weeks, that cost them the title.
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 9, 2018 7:59:06 GMT
In reality is Mercedes are a huge car manufacturer and are in the business of selling cars etc, does F1 help this or is it inconsequential? they are pulling out of DTM and are not involved in Le Mans or rallying anymore, so what are they getting out of their involvement? is it proving that they are the best? having had a Mercedes I would disagree as there is no way I would get another one, I like this Chris. I always aspired to having a Mercedes and ended up having two C Class kompressors in two months. Why two you might ask? Well the first one caught fire in the parking lot at work and was covered in powder from the fire being put out. It was exactly a month old from new. I refused to have it back so they replaced it with a brand new one. This had endless little problems, amongst others have to replace a belt on the motor in the first year, a seat that moved a few mm everytime I went around a corner, a cut out on the engine when starting off, a cd shuttle that didn't work and a bent front suspension. Admittedly the last one was after I hit a pole. I replaced it with an Audi A4 2.0 turbo diesel. Much better all round. I too will never buy another Merc. Apart from the above I also found the Merc staff here in SA incredibly arrogant.
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Post by mikael on Oct 9, 2018 8:30:09 GMT
More photos (mostly "atmosphere"):
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Post by mikael on Oct 9, 2018 10:07:38 GMT
This is a sad evolution: www.grandprix.com/news/vettel-laments-direction-of-modern-f1.htmlRelated to this, I turned on the TV in my hotel room in Nagoya late Sunday evening and coincidentally, there was a motor sport program which showed some clips from Super GT and then, a reportage from the Japanese Formula 4 Championship. This (F4) is on a "ridiculously" professional level, considering that the drivers are just teenagers (kids) aged 15, 16, 17, ... In the early days it was said that motor racing was a "rich man's sport". Then karting, Formula Ford, and the like, changed this and made it affordable also for ordinary salaried workers. And now it's back on a level that is completely inapproachable for that category of persons ...
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Post by charleselan on Oct 9, 2018 12:01:22 GMT
Some interesting comments above, so here are some points of note:- Great set of pictures Mikael, very atmospheric which really reflect this venue. Also loved the shot of Romain in the red Lotus Elan S3 D/H beautiful little car . Mercedes Benz are branded, and aspired to as pure snob value, and at one time that may have been true, now they are just glorified fleet cars like Ford or any other mass produce family car. The recent reliability issues would have made MB of old turn in its grave, as would its dire customer service in the UK. Never owned one and never wish to. Interesting technical analysis of the current F1 i/c engines Mikael and how diesel development has transferred across. What I find interesting is the fact that most if not all of the MB cars is designed and built in the UK, the engine department at Brixworth has its heritage in the former Illmor maker. The question to ask is why the FIA insisted on fitting an extra sensor to the Ferrari for Monaco; Mark Hughes is adamant it was this meeting that it was fitted and has reinforced this point to tedium for those that argue the toss. It was to do with the battery technology being used by Ferrari and for an extra sensor to be fitted it had to be for a reason. The fact that the cars ran with this battery technology through Monza seems odd to me, if it were to be deemed not fitting with the regulations, and now it is not apparently being used. Why? Yes! Other factors have changed on the Ferrari, like upgrades to bodywork/wings but anyone with normal eyesight can see that the cars do not have that extra and prolonged top speed on the straights that were so evident at Spa for instance. Incidentally the upgrades were taken off the cars after Friday Free practice following simulator work on Friday evening, and the cars returned to a previous configuration which made them far better balanced. As far as Ferrari cheating, that is something that is being discussed at length on many sites by the chalf of keyboard fan boys who do not follow anything red, but silver. The MS Forum is as bad as any, and the current discussions are a joke with the bias of the posts truly laughable. Mikael the cost of motor sport has always been at a premium, but as you rightly say there was a period when it was accessible for most on a normal income. Formula Ford in its original guise was just so, and anyone who really wanted to have a go could do so. The old Ford Kent engine was the ideal motor, and by using road tyres it was a great formula. Money and technology have ruined the sport and it has become elitist once more.
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