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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2018 11:42:36 GMT
The commentator on Fox Asia, English guy I don't know who he is and whether he's broadcast elsewhere too, was asked on Saturday after qualifying what did he expect for the race and replied he expected Mercedes to revert to team orders. I thought that couldn't be unless Hamilton pipped Bottas at the start. Then I was quite surprised at the end of the race to listen to Wolff's grovelling, I thought they had settled the matter beforehand and, as it happens in other businesses (like mine), they hadn't done the hard talk too! I agree with Rene'.
I suppose they don't want to sap a driver's motivation (Bottas, in this case) before the race, but it hurts more this way. I was also surprised Hamilton didn't give back the position to Bottas, as he did last year at Baku. Last year I felt that was a gesture of affectation from Hamilton, and perhaps the fact he took it yesterday without hesitation proves that impression. Now you would expect they will allow Bottas to win at least one before the end of the year, to keep the workforce happy with a view to next year.
They are not nice at all, but these are situations that have always happened in F1, one way or another, and some of my dark horses when I was younger were on the receiving end more than once. However, if yesterday it would have been Vettel the beneficiary of such a gesture from Raikkonen, somehow I feel there would have been much less uproar. That is also why I wanted to report the comments from two of the most respected Italian commentators, to show that besides the many boorish Turrinis - self-declared ferrarista (where is impartiality gone?) - there are also journalists in Italy whose judgement is more articulated and balanced.
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Post by charleselan on Oct 1, 2018 11:43:55 GMT
Horrible circuit that reminds me of a grand 21st century version of Caesars Palace. One more gripe before getting into the nitty gritty; and that is the cutaway TV shots of those filthy rich, and despotic, sitting in the "box seat". I don't watch motorsport on TV to see those individuals, or the idiots in the stands making stupid "love heart" symbols, it is the racing cars that interest me and that is why I am watching.
Team Orders.
This has been part of motor sport since its very inception and that is why the set ups are called "teams", for that is what they are. All this gnashing of teeth on the internet by individuals who do not like "team orders" just show themselves up to be ill educated follower, and not motor sport enthusiasts or fans of the sport.
The main issue with "team orders" is how and when they are applied, and over the years we have seen some pretty bad examples of its application, many highlighted above. The fallout from those has always been pretty major and it has resulted in a huge loss of face, and rancour for those who have applied it in a very cynical manner. In yesterdays event at Sochi we observed another example of it being applied in such a blatant and disrespectful way, it insulted fans and the two drivers involved.
Does that fool Tonto really believe that he had to apply "team orders" at this stage of the season with the lead his number one driver has in the championship, and the clear advantage his cars now have over the opposition. We are not talking about a team who are desperate to win a rare championship victory, we are talking about a team who have dominated this current formula for the past four and a bit years, and I mean dominated. This has been a massive PR blunder by Wolff and i hope he gets a lot of stick as a result.
I actually felt sorry for both drivers afterwards, the look of utter dejection and despair on Valterri's face was distressing and I have rarely seen The Mighty Hamilton so humble, all of which placed a big downer on the after race celebrations. Interestingly Lewis said that he had thought about handing the race back to Valterri, if that were the case then why didn't he? He is the sports biggest star and MB management certainly wouldn't have sacked, or dared sanction him for such an act.
This brings me to the thought of why the driver being subjugated did not refuse to comply, surely the onus would be on the beneficiary refusing to take the offered pass, that would be the real act of a man of integrity and steel. Just think of how people would have looked upon Michael if he had done that in Austria in 2002.
In relation to "team orders" in historical context. The one involving Peter Collins and Fangio at Monza in 1956 was not a team order, Peter offered his car to The Maestro as he felt that he wasn't a worthy World Champion himself in comparison with Fangio. Castelotti had I believe been ordered to hand over his car but actually refused, and that is what prompted Peter Collins to offer his own.
A perfect example of "team orders" being applied correctly would be when Colin Chapman instructed Ronnie to move over for a closely following Emerson in Austria 1973. Due to a run of mechanical failures Ronnie was out of the championship race, but Emerson was locked into a battle with JYS. Ronnie duly moved over, but unfortunately Emerson's car expired and Ronnie regained the lead and won the race.
In conclusion, it is part of the sport and its heritage, but the application of "team orders" is the fundamental issue.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2018 11:52:11 GMT
Sorry JC, I agree with what you say, but on the Collins' episode, Castellotti was ordered while Collins not? That proves there was a team order. Then I suppose we can discuss until the morning about whether Collins had been more chivalrous than Castellotti - and I do have read both the English (Mon Ami Mate) and Italian version (Gli Indisciplinati) of that episode.
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Post by mikael on Oct 1, 2018 11:52:36 GMT
I agree with René's point that, Mercedes ought to have made it more "black and white" (and stated the order with less embarrassment), as the decision "logically" makes a lot of sense. An advantage of 50 points, with five races to go. Two DNF's to Hamilton, and the advantage may be down to zero - with (then) three races to go. Five races, this means that 125 points are still available. (And presently, Bottas is 135 points behind Hamilton.) Even Vettel said (at the post-race press conference) that the position-switch was a "no-brainer". So many World championships have been won - or lost - by just a single point.
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Post by chrisb on Oct 1, 2018 14:17:32 GMT
Team orders are and have been a part of motorsport since time began,
Lucio you mention Varzi, now perhaps your memory/ knowledge is greater than mine but didn't Varzi win in Tripoli but the mayor complimented Stuck on his 'moral' victory much to Varzi's disgust? and was this one of the reasons behind Varzi eventually getting addicted to morphine as he was so mortified and innocent of the 'team orders?' and couldn't rest- might be interested in the Varzi biography as that sounds interesting,
Ferrari - well 1958 Mike's one point victory courtesy of Phil Hill moving over at Morocco? and again 1964 didn't Lorenzo move over for John to enable his WDC? were these 'team orders' or good guys sacrificing a position for the good of their team-mate?
as for 1956, I would be interested in the Italian version of events, as obviously everything I have read has been from a British perspective, although and I will double check as I think Fangio's biography says similar to the British journalists? Even Enzo I seem to recollect was full of admiration for Pete? but a different perspective is always interesting
It's not necessarily what you do - it is more about how you do it- sounds like a politician's statement - like Michael we knew who was the favoured one - why on earth beat about the bush and hide behind political non-speak that to me is more shameful than the actual orders,
another statement - Valteri- get another seat - you may not win races but you would win your self-respect back
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 1, 2018 14:19:25 GMT
Horrible circuit that reminds me of a grand 21st century version of Caesars Palace. One more gripe before getting into the nitty gritty; and that is the cutaway TV shots of those filthy rich, and despotic, sitting in the "box seat". I don't watch motorsport on TV to see those individuals, or the idiots in the stands making stupid "love heart" symbols, it is the racing cars that interest me and that is why I am watching. Team Orders. This has been part of motor sport since its very inception and that is why the set ups are called "teams", for that is what they are. All this gnashing of teeth on the internet by individuals who do not like "team orders" just show themselves up to be ill educated follower, and not motor sport enthusiasts or fans of the sport. The main issue with "team orders" is how and when they are applied, and over the years we have seen some pretty bad examples of its application, many highlighted above. The fallout from those has always been pretty major and it has resulted in a huge loss of face, and rancour for those who have applied it in a very cynical manner. In yesterdays event at Sochi we observed another example of it being applied in such a blatant and disrespectful way, it insulted fans and the two drivers involved. Does that fool Tonto really believe that he had to apply "team orders" at this stage of the season with the lead his number one driver has in the championship, and the clear advantage his cars now have over the opposition. We are not talking about a team who are desperate to win a rare championship victory, we are talking about a team who have dominated this current formula for the past four and a bit years, and I mean dominated. This has been a massive PR blunder by Wolff and i hope he gets a lot of stick as a result. I actually felt sorry for both drivers afterwards, the look of utter dejection and despair on Valterri's face was distressing and I have rarely seen The Mighty Hamilton so humble, all of which placed a big downer on the after race celebrations. Interestingly Lewis said that he had thought about handing the race back to Valterri, if that were the case then why didn't he? He is the sports biggest star and MB management certainly wouldn't have sacked, or dared sanction him for such an act. This brings me to the thought of why the driver being subjugated did not refuse to comply, surely the onus would be on the beneficiary refusing to take the offered pass, that would be the real act of a man of integrity and steel. Just think of how people would have looked upon Michael if he had done that in Austria in 2002. In relation to "team orders" in historical context. The one involving Peter Collins and Fangio at Monza in 1956 was not a team order, Peter offered his car to The Maestro as he felt that he wasn't a worthy World Champion himself in comparison with Fangio. Castelotti had I believe been ordered to hand over his car but actually refused, and that is what prompted Peter Collins to offer his own. A perfect example of "team orders" being applied correctly would be when Colin Chapman instructed Ronnie to move over for a closely following Emerson in Austria 1973. Due to a run of mechanical failures Ronnie was out of the championship race, but Emerson was locked into a battle with JYS. Ronnie duly moved over, but unfortunately Emerson's car expired and Ronnie regained the lead and won the race. In conclusion, it is part of the sport and its heritage, but the application of "team orders" is the fundamental issue. Yet in the very next race, the Italian GP, Lotus were running again 1/2 and Fittipaldi expected the same response but this time Chapman didn't pass the order. Stewart finished fourth and eventually won the Championship although Fittipaldi still had a mathematical chance.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2018 16:35:44 GMT
Team orders are and have been a part of motorsport since time began, Lucio you mention Varzi, now perhaps your memory/ knowledge is greater than mine but didn't Varzi win in Tripoli but the mayor complimented Stuck on his 'moral' victory much to Varzi's disgust? and was this one of the reasons behind Varzi eventually getting addicted to morphine as he was so mortified and innocent of the 'team orders?' and couldn't rest- might be interested in the Varzi biography as that sounds interesting, Ferrari - well 1958 Mike's one point victory courtesy of Phil Hill moving over at Morocco? and again 1964 didn't Lorenzo move over for John to enable his WDC? were these 'team orders' or good guys sacrificing a position for the good of their team-mate? as for 1956, I would be interested in the Italian version of events, as obviously everything I have read has been from a British perspective, although and I will double check as I think Fangio's biography says similar to the British journalists? Even Enzo I seem to recollect was full of admiration for Pete? but a different perspective is always interesting It's not necessarily what you do - it is more about how you do it- sounds like a politician's statement - like Michael we knew who was the favoured one - why on earth beat about the bush and hide behind political non-speak that to me is more shameful than the actual orders, another statement - Valteri- get another seat - you may not win races but you would win your self-respect back Chris,
That was Tripoli 1936, Neubauer (whose memoirs have been repeatedly shown not to be reliable, he tended to embellish his tales, his ego often in the way) claimed the race was rigged (once again, after the infamous 1933 lottery race) for political reasons to let an Italian driver on a German car to win. That is plausible. Then, during the evening dinner, Marshal Balbo, the governor of Libya, allegedly did a toast in honour of the “real” winner, Stuck. Varzi obviously did not get addicted for that, rather because he lost his head for Ilse Pietsch. Ah, cherchez la femme.
Bandini’s 1964 episode was indeed also mentioned in yesterday’s op-ed by Allievi I mentioned above.
Collins was very well admired in Italy and at Ferrari, couldn't be any different. I will come back on the specifics when I have my library beside, there are more than one person in Italy that wrote their recollections of the Fifties, for example Fiamma Breschi, Luigi Musso’s girlfriend, then Enzo Ferrari’s mistress and confidante until his death. I thought it was clear what I meant in my previous post, I wasn't implying that Collins didn't do it, but in the context there was more than met the eye and I am reluctant to condemn Castellotti when I have always praised Reutemann and dismissed Barrichello, Massa and Bottas, as I indeed I did praise Vettel "stealing" the infamous 2013 Malaysian GP from Webber at the time.
In the end Fangio and Schumacher achievements weren't diminished in no way by those episodes (Schumacher by other episodes, in my eyes, ask Damon Hill), as this one will not affect Hamilton's reputation: ultimately the clear ace of the era succeeded.
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Post by Carl on Oct 1, 2018 19:53:02 GMT
In American racing, surrendering position to benefit someone else is cause for suspicion and possibly a mental health evaluation
How championships are decided in Champ Car between Penske teammates
The difference in America is that, except in NASCAR, racing is more controlled by teams and less by manufacturers. As Mark Hughes has written several times, the manufacturers (constructors) control Formula One to an unprecedented extent, making their championship far more important than that of the drivers or of racing itself.
When Toto said to Bottas,"We'll talk about it later" he meant that they won't. How embarrassed he must have been to have one of his drivers express a reluctance to lose!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 6:23:31 GMT
as for 1956, I would be interested in the Italian version of events, as obviously everything I have read has been from a British perspective, although and I will double check as I think Fangio's biography says similar to the British journalists? Even Enzo I seem to recollect was full of admiration for Pete? but a different perspective is always interesting As a premise, which links with what follows about Monza 1956, this week’s Autosprint, commenting on the Russian GP, claims that the first team orders were issued during the Argentina GP in 1956, first race of the season, when Musso ceded his car to Fangio. Worth to remember that Fangio that year, at pretty much every race, was by far the fastest driver on track, almost untouchable. Pending to check my books, in particular Gli Indisciplinati, an outstanding and very thick book which relates the story of the “undisciplined” or “unruly”, that is Eugenio Castellotti, Alfonso Portago, Luigi Musso, Peter Collins and Mike Hawthorn - I do recall I read on more than one source that things that day weren’t that cut and dried and quite a lot went on ( chez Ferrari, with respect to el Señor Fangio). Monza 1956. Last race of the championship. Fangio clear favourite for the title, eight points ahead. Collins could still beat him to the title, but had to win and set the fastest lap, with Fangio failing to score. Fangio was accompanied by his manager Marcello Giambertone. During the race Fangio had steering problems and stopped at the pits. At that time Fangio had a private mechanic within the Scuderia, who couldn’t find the required spare part. Even the spare car is disassembled. No chance, as four laps have already gone. Giambertone then requests Eraldo Sculati (Ferrari team manager, responsible on track that day) to call in Musso such that Fangio can carry on with Musso's car. Sculati follows up on this request with mixed feelings. He calls in Musso, whom ignores him, as he is running second in his home GP. Musso only comes in when he needs refueling and change tires. Sculati then talks to him, but Musso refuses and re-joins the race. It seems it followed a heated discussion between Sculati and Giambertone after that. Did Sculati at first refused the Fangio camp’s request? Then Collins came in for his tire change. The Englishman is behind Moss and Musso, but still with a chance to win the race and the title. Now, some sources claim that Giambertone reached out to Collins to explain Fangio’s situation and to give up his car. This as Sculati had left the pits and gone to the press area to avoid any new confrontation with Giambertone. Fangio and other sources later stated that this was untrue (like other statements in the Fangio biography written just by Giambertone) and that Sculati was standing next to him when Collins came in, who then saw Fangio and jumped out. This is Eraldo Sculati’s wife recollections (to the author of Gli Indiciplinati, this passage is online): Q. How was Eraldo with the drivers? A. A friend. And a great joker. Q. Tell me about the Italian Grand Prix at Monza in 1956. A. Fangio, without car, required Musso's car, which was second. Eraldo refused. He even went to the stands, Eraldo, after the argument about Musso with Marcello Giambertone, Fangio's manager. 'Officially' then Collins gave the car to Fangio of his own free will. Q.While in reality... A. I don’t know. That was the official version. A. What comments did Eraldo make on the facts of Monza? Q. No comment. He never commented. In fact, there were no newspapers which talked about it. He was like that, Eraldo. Q. At that time there were great champions at Ferrari. A. The best of the best. Q. Luigi Musso, for example. Luigi was my passion. He was a stylist driver, a beautiful and very nice man. He had a girlfriend, Fiamma Breschi, beautiful too. Fiamma was 17 when they met. She adored him. When Luigi died, my husband was there, in Reims. [...] Q. How was Eugenio Castellotti? A. They were close friends, he and Musso, but in the race they hated each other. When I saw them racing, I was dying of fear, because they would kill each other to get ahead. But I didn’t know Eugenio very much. Our friends were Musso, Collins and Fangio, the latter up to the facts of Monza 1956. Q. Was Eraldo someone who easily got angry or was he a quiet man? A. Only once he lost his patience: when Fangio and Giambertone published the biography of Fangio. Eraldo wanted to sue them because they had written that Manuel had been boycotted and sabotaged during the '56 season. Eraldo felt very offended by those words. But Ferrari told him: "Forget it. The more these things are talked about, the more they widen and the worse it is ". Sculati was sacked by Ferrari after Monza 1956.
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Post by René on Oct 4, 2018 7:59:11 GMT
Fascinating stuff, Lucio. Thanks for sharing. I should really do some more reading on the 1950's...
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Post by chrisb on Oct 4, 2018 8:49:55 GMT
fascinating Lucio, like so many episodes of motor racing, both historical and currently we rarely get the full story and hope for the day we do
what I don't understand is from what I am led to believe Enzo and Fangio didn't get on and in fact disliked each other quite intensely - whilst Enzo was very fond of Peter until Peter got married that is, I believe that it was something about how Peter got on with Dino, so I would have envisaged Enzo instructing Sculati to assist Peter in the WDC? Interesting that Musso and Pete were friends in 1956
I am often left wondering especially in MotoGP just how 'equal' the machinery is between team-mates, but I guess we'll never really know
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 11:38:45 GMT
This is still Mrs Giovanna Sculati, from the same book mentioned above. There are lots of Ferrari’s hagiographers at work in Italy, and beyond, but very few would dispute the fact that he wasn’t the nicest of men. He fell out with drivers often, not just Fangio, Nuvolari too famously a couple of times. Of course, he had sincere admiration of them as drivers, he wasn’t a fool, he knew they were unique specimens, he always considered them as the archetypes of the calculator and the brave, respectively. As for Fangio, I can’t really say, but you don’t win five championship, jumping from one marque to the other - four of them, record difficult to beat – if you’re not driven and quite self-centred.
One question however came to mind while I was writing my previous post: what would Fangio’s record be if they weren’t allowed to jump in other’s cars when theirs broke down? I can’t and won’t check, but at least both in Argentina and Monza 1956 he wouldn’t have taken points and I suppose the final season result would have been quite different.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 12:38:05 GMT
From the introduction of Gli Indisciplinati: The book, far from being an hagiography - the opposite - indeed is about that golden generation of five drivers - Castellotti, De Portago, Musso, Collins and Hawthorn - that tragically disappeared within two short years.
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Post by Jamie on Oct 4, 2018 13:24:12 GMT
I’d love to read that book Lucio, do you know if there’s an English translation? I’ll have to look into that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 15:01:22 GMT
Jamie, unfortunately not translated, I have checked on Amazon and on the author's website. A shame, really a great book. It was first published in 2001, I read it at the time.
I am going to translate this chapter, to give an idea how good it is:
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