|
Post by charleselan on Sept 17, 2018 12:02:00 GMT
Lucio, Carl, John Charles. All of your posts are excellent and I agree with almost all the points to a varying degrees. JC your point about Hamilton driving with more freedom makes excellent sense because he is now using his natural talent to its full potential and is not hampered and constrained by self doubts or worrying about mistakes or being out thought by his team mate.. In many cases in life this sort of freedom increases self belief and the talent flows easily and an upward spiral in performance happens and repeats itself. Whilst Ferrari may have the best overall car on average over the whole season it does not mean it is the best in every race. I certainly think it wasn't the best in Singapore on race day. Mercedes did a lot of work for the race and it paid off. Hamilton is probably the best driver overall at the moment and has the car to win from anywhere and doesn't mind if he is not leading from the front, he can get there. All top drivers have a preferred method of winning races. Seb, another brilliant all round package, is very good when dictating the pace of the race from the front. If he can't do that he is not as successful as say Hamilton. It doesn't make him a bad driver. Jim Clark preferred to charge off into the distance and break the spirit of following drivers. Jackie Stewart had the ability to go faster on cold tyres and get on the pace quicker than his rivals and used that to his advantage. Alain Prost preferred to prepare his car for race pace and was happy to start further back than his rivals. The point is that all drivers that are any good have a method that works best for them and some days it won't work. I think part of Seb's problem is that he is trying to do too much from the cockpit and doesn't have faith in his strategy team. The Ferrari strategy is not at the same level as Mercedes or Red Bull and if I don't trust them to make the right call how do Seb and Kimi feel. I think Nico Rosberg has been way underrated, probably because he was driving for Mercedes and was such a gentleman. Ironically the same is happening to Hamilton with regard to his standing in the pantheon of greats, I don't think he has the personal grace of Rosberg. As has been said many times here, it is not just how you drive but how you behave as a human being to both your fans, your team and your fellow drivers. Hamilton to me is not good at that and that is why I prefer Seb to him. Finally to Carl's excellent point on fans' choices. People all see things in greater or lesser detail than others regarding a particlar sports star. Some things that irritate others may be an endearing trait to me. I personally dislike the way certain darker hued sports stars throw their colour in your face eg Serena Williams but the black women movement might find it endearing. By not initially agreeing with everything written on this site, but respecting others views and exploring them when I disagree, I have learnt much. A good example is my view on Didier Pironi which was changed to the positive after reading points here and then investigating further. Long may our differences lead to a greater understanding for all. At least on this forum disagreements or different views are treated with respect and our individual dignity intact. I thank you all for that. This is an excellent post Rob, and to my mind says it all. It might appear that I do not rate The Mighty Hamilton, but that would not be strictly true as there can be no getting away from the fact that he is performing to a very high standard this year in particular. However Ferrari have flattered to deceive, and sadly not for the first time. I am not a fan of Sebastian to any degree, but I think that he is under immense pressure not only from Ferrari and the "Tifosi", but also himself; Hamilton does not have any of that now that Nico has retired. Mistakes happen when you are under pressure, no matter who you are, and a team that appears to be in complete disarray are just magnifying the situation for Sebastian. The disgusting way that Ferrari management went about announcing the driver change for next year has also had a big impact upon relationships, truly woeful management but unfortunately much as one would expect in F1 circles these days. I will hold my hands up and say that I too doubted Nico Rosberg true ability, and often stated that he wasn't in the same league as his father. O.K. they were completely different drivers, but the way Nico handled Hamilton was of the highest order, and this is what Lewis does not have to deal with today. Hamilton had more natural flare and inbred ruthlessness, but Nico was the more cerebral and used that to his advantage. Sadly Valtteri has neither the speed or the mental capacity of Rosberg Jnr and is allowing Hamilton a clear perspective in his race against Ferrari. With regard to likes & dislikes, everyone has them whether they own up to that fact or not. I have always been pretty choosy about my "ideal" sports person, with character and personality playing a large part. In my "super hero" I have some pretty hard acts to follow with Jim Clark; Mike Hailwood and Ronnie sitting comfortably out front. Three of the greatest natural talents in their respective fields, and above all else honest self effacing gentlemen. Unfortunately I cannot warm to Lewis Hamilton's outward persona; the display of outward petulance when beaten, and the the lack of grace in such circumstances leave me cold.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2018 12:39:17 GMT
Lucio, Few here doubt Hamilton's extraordinary talent, and when judgment is based, as it often is, on one dimension, he is universally admired.
I think the point made about Rosberg is that for him to often beat a supremely talented teammate (far more often than Bottas) means Rosberg was better than thought. One of Nico's great advantages against his teammate was psychological. He kept him unbalanced with mindgames against which Hamilton had few defenses and, with Rosberg now retired, Hamilton is more relaxed even against more formidable rivals.
There will always be unfair biases among fans. Growing up, with one or two exceptions, I hated the Boston Celtics. That's the nature of sport. Fans don't always choose their heroes entirely on statistics. Despite his obvious great talent, some are reluctant to grant complete admiration to Hamilton because he provides that in abundance for himself.
Cheers, Carl
First. I am not a fan.
I didn’t mention Rosberg first, but I have run the numbers on a spreadsheet of their four years as teammates. Average difference qualifying lap times, poles, wins and points. Championship wins obviously is 2-1 for Hamilton.
HAM ROS (respectively, the table disappeared with the paste function)
2013
Del 0.225 sec (ROS slower) PP 5 3 Wins 1 2 Points 189 171 2014
Del 0.037 sec (HAM slower) PP 7 11 Wins 11 5 Points 384 317 2015
Del 0.140 sec (ROS slower) PP 11 7 Wins 10 6 Points 381 322 2016
Del 0.054 sec (HAM slower) PP 12 8 Wins 10 9 Points 380 385 Total
Del 0.065 sec (ROS slower) PP 35 29 Wins 32 22 Points 1334 1195
I have always said that Rosberg deserved his title, read my comments of the time on MS, and overall, over four years, it was often a close run thing, but I don't have doubt who was the better driver if I have to mention him.
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Sept 17, 2018 16:28:06 GMT
Lucio,
I know you didn't mention Rosberg first and I haven't said you are a fan. I don't like the term either. My points about both are independent ones. A good discussion moves from one perspective to another, and sometimes to a third.
We are all entitled to an opinion and others are entitled to disagree. All viewpoints deserve respect, and it would be boring if everyone always seconded my opinions.
I don't always agree with other comments, but always respect the knowledge, insight and sincerity on which they are based. Far better a forum where spirited debate is more common than unanimous agreement.
Cheers, Carl
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2018 22:51:57 GMT
Found this comment on MS just now. Says it all.
As far as I am concerned, I repeat for the last time that I am not a fan of any of them, I am only interested to see the best the sport can offer. In the same way I admired Borg or McEnroe before and now Federer. After several years of Merc dominance, last year it seemed finally we had what seemed a bonafide ace like Vettel on machinery on par to fight the Merc, and slightly hoped he would come up on top, if anything to break the dullness. The result has been anything but, exactly because they came up against a superior competitor.
All this splitting hairs about Mr Hamilton, the usual Clark and Peterson predictably thrown in the mix, even reassessing Schumacher (“I heard that he was a real nice guy”) while forgetting that he used to throw people out of the track, well, all this I find it ludicrous. While respecting everybody is entitled to their opinion, and all that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2018 3:36:54 GMT
Looks like the paraphrase of a famous Italian film, which title is "you know that I know that you know" PS: Once a famous philosopher said: "You see, there are two kinds of people in this world, my friend. Those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig"
|
|
|
Post by Jamie on Sept 18, 2018 6:40:22 GMT
Found this comment on MS just now. Says it all.
As far as I am concerned, I repeat for the last time that I am not a fan of any of them, I am only interested to see the best the sport can offer. In the same way I admired Borg or McEnroe before and now Federer. After several years of Merc dominance, last year it seemed finally we had what seemed a bonafide ace like Vettel on machinery on par to fight the Merc, and slightly hoped he would come up on top, if anything to break the dullness. The result has been anything but, exactly because they came up against a superior competitor.
All this splitting hairs about Mr Hamilton, the usual Clark and Peterson predictably thrown in the mix, even reassessing Schumacher (“I heard that he was a real nice guy”) while forgetting that he used to throw people out of the track, well, all this I find it ludicrous. While respecting everybody is entitled to their opinion, and all that.
Hi Lucio, That was an excellent post on MS and actually prompted me to comment (rare). From my perspective, I support Hamilton as I think he’s the best and I also think he gets a harder time than the rest as he’s so much in the spotlight. As a personality, he’s not my favourite driver of all time and he’s never going to receive the adulation I have had for some drivers in the past.....but hey, I could say that about all the current drivers I suppose. Let’s face it, he’s under a lot of pressure to perform so it’s difficult to be affable all the time. Maybe he’ll relax and lighten up a bit when his driving career is over as has Rosberg. Nico is the perfect example of that - I often thought him an insincere little p***k when he was an active driver but since retiring he’s proved himself to be a real gent and seems a genuinely nice guy. And we like to think our sporting hero’s are nice guys don’t we? It’s of little relevance to their sporting potential, but I could never have a genuine admiration for someone I thought was a bit of an arsehole. Which is why I’m quite interested to hear how various sportspeople act and behave when away from their working environment, it very often shows how they are controlled and act differently when under the spotlight......quite sad in a way. Long story short, I do think Hamilton gets an unnecessarily hard time as his every word is public record. Others are given more slack for sure. Just look at some of the comment on MS regarding Lewis......ridiculous and highly insulting at times. Are you going to the next film day? Mike Wilde’s should be quite good.
|
|
|
Post by robmarsh on Sept 18, 2018 6:55:20 GMT
Lucio your points, made more repeatedly than Ray in Toronto, about Hamilton being the best driver out there have been accepted by everyone on this forum. None of us are denying that. For you his performance is all that counts and personality or charisma, call it what you will, have nothing to do with it. That's your choice, please don't insist that I make it mine. For me, there are other aspects that I take into account when deciding which sports star I might like over another, that is my choice. For example I prefer Verstappen to Hamilton and if I am watching sport, for my enjoyment, I like to have somebody or some team as a favourite to win so that I can enjoy the day. For example in rugby or cricket I support any team that plays against Australia. In F1 I support Ferrari over all else. There is no right answer, everybody is free to make a choice as to who we support and why.
|
|
|
Post by charleselan on Sept 18, 2018 12:30:20 GMT
All this splitting hairs about Mr Hamilton, the usual Clark and Peterson predictably thrown in the mix, even reassessing Schumacher (“I heard that he was a real nice guy”) while forgetting that he used to throw people out of the track, well, all this I find it ludicrous. While respecting everybody is entitled to their opinion, and all that.
Lucio, I am sorry but no one is "splitting hairs " here, myself probably the most prominent. If I choose to assess my ideal of a "great driver" by using comparisons from those that had a profound bearing on my context, then that is neither predictable nor ludicrous. To be a "great" in any selected field has in my opinion to be the person as a whole, how they carry themselves is equally important as to the talent they may be imbued with. If you wish to divorce anything other than the performance then fine that is your prerogative, I however have my standards and will continue to uphold those for the rest of my life, and I reiterate it isn't ludicrous or "splitting hairs". I believe that it was Chris who put forward the Michael Schumacher scenario, and from what i understand he did not in anyway attempt to exonerate him from his antics on track. He was merely saying that away from the limelight he came across as a decent chap, the emphasis here being that Lewis Hamilton might well be the same. With regard to the quoted comment from MS, I too read it, and for my part it came across as a pompous piece of self aggrandisement. It was as one sided as the opposing view, and dismissive of views put forward by others by glossing over the complete picture. JC
|
|
|
Post by Jamie on Sept 18, 2018 14:34:42 GMT
I think our discussion here shows that Lewis certainly sparks debate 😆
I do think that the poster on MS had it about right....he does get closer scrutiny than others I think and some of it unfair. And some of the things he says rankle, I can completely see that, but quite a lot of his peers are the same and don’t get the same treatment. I can see the counter argument though and he sometimes doesn’t do himself any favours with the way he comes across.
He’s marmite alright but I think we’d all 100% agree that he’s a brilliant racing driver. Is he the best driver of this era? In my opinion a resounding yes and he’d certainly have a seat at the top table of our sports greats.
Obviously this is all just my personal opinion.....happy to be shot down etc 😁
|
|
|
Post by Jamie on Sept 18, 2018 14:40:41 GMT
Forgot to add that, racing romantics as we all are, it is difficult not to assess the current crop of drivers against our past favourites.......they’ll never be anyone equal to Clark in my opinion and that goes so much deeper than mere ability behind the wheel.
That’s where Lewis, Seb and the current crop come up a little short for me but that’s just life in general now......stakes are too high, chivalry probably seen as a weakness etc etc.
|
|
|
Post by robmarsh on Sept 18, 2018 14:40:42 GMT
Since every driver I have picked on this forum to win the GP in question has not won when picked eg Kimi and Seb, I have decided to pick Lewis next race.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie on Sept 18, 2018 14:43:01 GMT
Since every driver I have picked on this forum to win the GP in question has not won when picked eg Kimi and Seb, I have decided to pick Lewis next race. 😂 Probably a sure thing.....the lad’s on fire at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by charleselan on Sept 18, 2018 14:58:36 GMT
I think you may have missed Rob's nuance there Jamie .
|
|
|
Post by René on Sept 18, 2018 15:00:33 GMT
Since every driver I have picked on this forum to win the GP in question has not won when picked eg Kimi and Seb, I have decided to pick Lewis next race. I will join you Rob... if I can force myself to it...
|
|
|
Post by René on Sept 18, 2018 15:20:07 GMT
I think our discussion here shows that Lewis certainly sparks debate 😆 I do think that the poster on MS had it about right....he does get closer scrutiny than others I think and some of it unfair. And some of the things he says rankle, I can completely see that, but quite a lot of his peers are the same and don’t get the same treatment. I can see the counter argument though and he sometimes doesn’t do himself any favours with the way he comes across. He’s marmite alright but I think we’d all 100% agree that he’s a brilliant racing driver. Is he the best driver of this era? In my opinion a resounding yes and he’d certainly have a seat at the top table of our sports greats. Obviously this is all just my personal opinion.....happy to be shot down etc 😁 You're right Jamie. Never a dull moment when discussing Lewis! I do agree he often gets closer scrutiny than others which is mostly unfair. But with sports it's not only about who is the best, it is just as much about emotions, passion and personal preferences. Personally, I don't give a d**** about Lewis's private life, his hairstyle or jewelry. I once witnessed him upclose at a Mercedes event in my hometown a few years back and he came across as a truly descent fellow, can't say anything else. He can come across as a bit forced sometimes but hey, if he ever chose to wear red I would welcome him! I remember I 'hated' Senna back in the days, he ruined so many sunday afternoons for me! But besides being a Ferrari fan I am also a racing fan. I love the sport and fully acknowledged Senna's qualities and would have been euphoric had he ever signed a Ferrari contract. It's the same with Lewis for me.
|
|