|
Post by Carl on Apr 28, 2018 15:46:28 GMT
Wasn't the Red Bull redesigned to favor Vettel's driving style, adding to Webber's difficulty? Apparently Helmut Marko wanted all the aces in Vettel's hand. Webber should have reacted to the blatant ignorance of team orders in Malaysia by ignoring decorum. Mark should have picked Vettel up by the epaulets after the race and set him down hard. Maybe Mark should have. It was an arrogant move by Seb but I guess (I am quite sure actually) Seb couldn't help himself. It's the killer instinct which Mark lacked in his career. Personally, I prefer Seb over Mark to be honest. Mark seems like a good bloke but having Briatore as a manager and Teflonso as your best pal in racing just makes you wonder. I like Seb for his good sense of humor, his killer instinct as a racer and the fact he has no manager and takes care of his business himself and keeps his family life and friends private. Smart guy. Point well taken. Both have notable flaws and Vettel is no doubt the better driver. Nonetheless, refusing direct team orders and saying "too bad" seems more kindergarten instinct than killer.
|
|
|
Post by charleselan on Apr 28, 2018 17:30:41 GMT
I think both René & Carl have some good points regarding the ignoring of team orders in Malaysia, although I would tend to side with the thought that it displayed gross immaturity and a lack of respect. The team were woeful in the aftermath, but typical of Horner who is the ultimate mouthpiece with little substance.
Mark Webber always came across as a good guy, but like you René I have reservations these days due to exactly the same points that you raise. Loyalty with friends is admirable but there comes a time when one has to draw a line in the sand.
Without getting on my hobby horse about current F1; I did not watch any of the qualifying but have read some material. I have the distinct feeling that Kimi's real problem these days is concentration; could be an age thing or that he just lacks the ultimate desire. Jim Clark once said that if he needed to drive quicker, he simply concentrated harder, it was as simple as that.
|
|
|
Post by René on Apr 28, 2018 17:58:52 GMT
Maybe Mark should have. It was an arrogant move by Seb but I guess (I am quite sure actually) Seb couldn't help himself. It's the killer instinct which Mark lacked in his career. Personally, I prefer Seb over Mark to be honest. Mark seems like a good bloke but having Briatore as a manager and Teflonso as your best pal in racing just makes you wonder. I like Seb for his good sense of humor, his killer instinct as a racer and the fact he has no manager and takes care of his business himself and keeps his family life and friends private. Smart guy. Point well taken. Both have notable flaws and Vettel is no doubt the better driver. Nonetheless, refusing direct team orders ("Too bad') seems more kindergarten instinct than killer. Oh yes agreed, it was not very mature. Let's say "killer instinct" in its infancy.
|
|
|
Post by René on Apr 28, 2018 18:05:52 GMT
I think both René & Carl have some good points regarding the ignoring of team orders in Malaysia, although I would tend to side with the thought that it displayed gross immaturity and a lack of respect. The team were woeful in the aftermath, but typical of Horner who is the ultimate mouthpiece with little substance. Mark Webber always came across as a good guy, but like you René I have reservations these days due to exactly the same points that you raise. Loyalty with friends is admirable but there comes a time when one has to draw a line in the sand. Without getting on my hobby horse about current F1; I did not watch any of the qualifying but have read some material. I have the distinct feeling that Kimi's real problem these days is concentration; could be an age thing or that he just lacks the ultimate desire. Jim Clark once said that if he needed to drive quicker, he simply concentrated harder, it was as simple as that. Kimi was way up on Sebs time after two sectors (several tenth) so on a super lap. He got too wide and the rear snapped in turn 16, the last corner. He could have taken that 'safe' and still be on pole. I love Kimi but it seems when it really matters he is not as sharp anymore as he used to be.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2018 22:10:39 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Apr 28, 2018 23:16:23 GMT
Point well taken. Both have notable flaws and Vettel is no doubt the better driver. Nonetheless, refusing direct team and saying "too bad" seems more kindergarten instinct than killer. Oh yes agreed, it was not very mature. Let's say "killer instinct" in its infancy. Very well said, Rene...
|
|
|
Post by chrisb on Apr 29, 2018 6:23:31 GMT
over the years we have witnessed many a 'team order' - the worst in the past twenty years seem to be with Alonso and Michael, i can understand it towards the end of a season when one driver has the chance of being a champ and the other a chump but Seb is 75% cool and 25% tantrum teddy, which i can resonate with, and don't have much of a problem with, Kimi is a one off and charismatic with it, still quick i would love to see him in a Williams or a smaller team next year but I have never [despite being their champion] seen him as a Ferrari driver, not that i know what that is but,
I am troubled by some instances of team orders in our history namely Reutermann and Jones, Michael and Rubens, Alonso and Masa, but less so with Gilles and Jody, Ronnie and Mario, so for me is it about integrity or something else? but then whose integrity?
|
|
|
Post by robmarsh on Apr 29, 2018 6:40:51 GMT
Chris, I think it is the individual's integrity and as important mutual respect that counts. Jackie Stewart and François Cevert also had it. If the lead driver or the team do not show the other driver respect for his ability then I believe the second driver may try to prove them wrong. I also believe that team orders work both ways and the faster driver on the day should be allowed to win on merit and not be hampered by team orders. This total desire to win at all costs, a very unfortunate modern trait, is a blight not only on sport but life itself. To my mind a race or championship victory won because my faster team mate moved over for me, is not one I would be proud of. Why does Moth still question his 1955 British GP victory?
Never a truer statement than "It's not what you win, it's how you win that counts". Always has been and always will be that way in my book.
|
|
|
Post by Jamie on Apr 29, 2018 8:39:41 GMT
Chris, I think it is the individual's integrity and as important mutual respect that counts. Jackie Stewart and François Cevert also had it. If the lead driver or the team do not show the other driver respect for his ability then I believe the second driver may try to prove them wrong. I also believe that team orders work both ways and the faster driver on the day should be allowed to win on merit and not be hampered by team orders. This total desire to win at all costs, a very unfortunate modern trait, is a blight not only on sport but life itself. To my mind a race or championship victory won because my faster team mate moved over for me, is not one I would be proud of. Why does Moth still question his 1955 British GP victory? Never a truer statement than "It's not what you win, it's how you win that counts". Always has been and always will be that way in my book. Hear, hear Rob 👍
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2018 10:47:27 GMT
Yes, pole for Vettel! Forza Ferrari! Could have been pole for Kimi were it not for that mistake in the last sector. They call him the iceman but Seb seems cooler when it matters. Good to see the Force Indias getting up to speed. And what a close moment between Pierre and Brendon, yeez! It was quite a tense qualifying session, it is amazing how those top three teams always seem to hit their pace in time for Q3. I'm hoping that Force India's performance in Baku is an indication that they've got on top of their chassis problems, not just something specific to this circuit, or because Mercedes have given them some extra power modes to play with. That said Williams also posted some top 10 times in the FP sessions, so maybe it is just the power modes. Did anyone hear what happened to Verstappen's p.u after FP3? At then end of that, he stopped because of a p.u problem, but come qualifying everything was running fine. I'm a bit worried about Grosjean too, he's been having a poor season, but Baku has been a proper nightmare. Time to call in his mental coach to pull him out of his tailspin.
|
|
|
Post by chrisb on Apr 29, 2018 11:02:56 GMT
although Nigel Roebuck isn't always highly regarded on this forum I would point people towards his new reflection in the online Autosport - I feel it really is a good piece of journalism that feels much more balanced than usual, and he does make some very good points, especially about Daniel, a thoroughly good read i think,
|
|
|
Post by René on Apr 29, 2018 16:07:35 GMT
Wow, where do we start? What a race, what a chaos! Certainly the second race in a row that Ferrari lost where it should have won. Also very bad luck for Valtteri.
But the talk of the town will be about the RB boys. Only politically correct talk afterwards by Max and Daniel, clearly instructed by Marko and Horner. Kimi will probably think he has a new Ferrari contract in the bag now!
Jim, your remark about Grosjean was on the mark! What a silly mistake. Also by the Hulk by the way.
|
|
|
Post by René on Apr 29, 2018 17:46:29 GMT
Great race by Charles LeClerc. Wouldn't be surprised if he has the upperhand over Ericsson from now on.
Back to the Red Bull boys, it's nice to have them race eachother but this is stupid. I agree both were at fault here but I also feel the team. They were instructing the drivers to overtake their teammate all the time. Certainly on a track like this it's asking for trouble. Not smart in my book.
|
|
|
Post by charleselan on Apr 29, 2018 18:20:10 GMT
With some very inclement weather outside I decided to watch the live UK C4 transmission of the race. The intro was reasonable if one could get past Jordan and some of his rather silly comments. An interview with Sebastian Vettel was rather good; and as is the norm with him he came over very well indeed.
The grid walk was as usual complete garbage and a waste of air time. However I will say that David Coultard on this occasion came over quite impressively, particularly out of the coms box; good to see him being less shallow and less flippant.
For me the main thing was to somehow eclipse the "toilet seat", and once achieved I was able to watch the juggernauts in action. Far too many comings together for my liking and this is supposed to feature the worlds best racing drivers; however this according to the "experts" is what makes the sport so exciting!
The race was easily Sebastian's but taken away by the implementation of a pace car, but as he has proffered by the same he has nothing to complain about. Hats off to him in trying to win at the end; but to be honest can anyone imagine the likes of Ayrton for example screwing up!
What can one say about the Red Bull incident. Niki Lauda when interviewed afterwards said it was 70% Max's fault, while Coultard in commentary felt it was down to Ricciardo. Both are correct in my opinion. Max did his usual multiple moves, but not as exaggerated as in the past (I am still of the opinion that the rules state only one move allowed). On the contrary, and as I have suggested earlier in the week, Ricciardo would come unstuck with someone who wasn't about to give him room when he attempted a lunge. To quote dear old "Jenks" it was all rather messy, and the look on Marko; Horner and Newey's faces made my viewing all worth while.
Felt really sorry for Bottas after a calm and clever drive as he deserved the win almost as much as Sebastian. Young Sainz was mighty in the early stages, as was his team mate but sadly Nico made an error and was done for the day. Charles Leclerc drove superbly and great to see Sauber gain some well earned points, this kid has great promise. Nice drive from Perez as well and a surprising podium but very well done.
Good to see Brendon Hartley gain a first point as well.
|
|
|
Post by chrisb on Apr 29, 2018 20:11:33 GMT
I too watched the race,a cold miserable afternoon watching this or working or ITV4 and bumper cars - F1 won, well, the carbon fibre manufacturers actually won, i thought Lewis drove a nothing race but he had to be there to win it,
I was so pleased to see Seb not try and block Lewis at the start, but was stunned by the first series of accidents, and then it all fell into a pattern, what was clear was that Max was reasonably ok for anyone but Daniel to overtake him, but against Daniel it was ridiculous and reminded me of Marquez and Rossi in Malaysia - so was aware unless a pit stop determined the overtake it was always going to end in shattered carbon fibre - which i was then shocked by DC's comments - sorry, as John pointed out - how many moves are you entitled to? so Niki's comments were spot-on for me, felt for Bottas and Seb and didn't he come across very well, shame Lee didn't interview him,
disappointed about Hulkenberg but some very good drives elsewhere
driver of the day? between Perez? Sainz or LeClerc, I'l go for Sainz
|
|