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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 7:58:15 GMT
In this dystopian world, Orwell will rise from the grave to say "I told you so". Quoting WH Auden. (One of my favourite English-speaking poets, with TS Eliot, Robert Frost, Emily Dickinson...)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 8:11:15 GMT
Lucio - do I remember you saying that you completed a thesis on the MP4 tub for your degree (or something similar). I'd love to read that if so, perhaps Motorsport could run it as an article Yes I did, Jamie. The reference I had in mind from the start was the MP4 indeed, at the time there wasn't yet the raised nose. We had available in the engineering faculty (just round the corner from the Colosseum) MSC-NASTRAN, the complex structural analysis software originally developed by NASA to get to the moon. There was a wall full of thick manuals for all the various specialized uses it had. The manager of the calculation centre (Centro di Calcolo), when he saw the sketches of the chassis, said that I would have taken at least two months to model it. I did it within the week... EDIT: just to add that my dissertation was full of maths, curved integrals of stiffness coefficients along the monocoque shell contours, and a section on the race car vehicle dynamics. I doubt it would be of interest to Motorsport, too much detail for most people to understand it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 8:31:18 GMT
Completely missed the Florida race, I thought it was on tonight. Spec series might work for Indy, but not for F1, it would be the end of the concept after a century of GP racing - which as it stands we are already close enough, as all cars look the same... Wonderful as Indycar racing is (I'm a fan) I must agree that F1 shouldn't be a spec chassis formula - for me it should be about the technical innovation possible when the need to go faster than the team next door drives development. However, what F1 lacks and Indycar seems to have in spades is a sensible 'behind the scenes' team who know how to fix things when they've gone too far. Indycars of the last few seasons were uninspiring so they did something about it....excellent work. F1's ship turns far, far too slowly as its all about the numbers behind the scenes and the vested interests and self, self, self mentality of some (most) of the protagonists. I can't see it changing and I'm so disappointed with the cars themselves at the moment - bloated, high-tech barges. Then we have the god-awful circuits, PR speak drenched drivers, Liberties attempts to improve the show and score quick PC wins (pLLLease)....it all adds up to rather poor state of affairs at the moment. Having said all that, I can't wait for the first race to see who's really quickest so I'm actively feeding the troll I think we'd all agree that the F1 of today is a pretty terrible product but I can't quite tear myself away, habit is an extremely powerful compulsion. I have then had a glimpse on youtube of the last couple of laps of St Pete's race. It is good fun indeed, but the lack of car diversity completely fails to inspire me, I must say. It's fun like a kart race could be. Bathurst was way more enthralling - different cars, top driving, compelling track. After twelve hours they were still racing flat out for the lead within tens of a second. F1 is in a conundrum, which crossed vested interests will make it difficult to sort itself out. What Johansson says makes sense: reduce aero drastically, open the regs to engine and car architecture, make mechanical grip king again, that way technical creativity and driving skills will come back to the front.
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Post by René on Mar 17, 2018 10:25:35 GMT
Some wonderful conversations here gentlemen and Lucio, I really enjoy your musings about the behind the scenes play of forces of contemporary F1. You may have lost interest in the racing but at least this keeps you connected! Anyway, I am more with Jamie that I can't seem to tear myself away from it and I am really looking forward to the Aussie Grand Prix. I even think we could be in for a good season with more than two or three possible winners. I see a fifth world title for Seb on the horizon...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 13:29:34 GMT
That's cool, Rene'. I may be opinionated but not necessarily right. I am just thinking aloud here, as I really don't have the time otherwise.
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Post by mikael on Mar 18, 2018 5:04:27 GMT
The "Heritage" section of McLaren F1's homepage gives a very good overview of the evolution of the Formula One car. One can scroll through almost all of the cars McLaren have ever made, to see, for example, how the cockpit placement and driver positions have changed back and forth throughout the years. Link: www.mclaren.com/formula1/heritage/cars/As to the present generation of F1 cars, it is as if the long aft sections of the turbo cars of the early-mid 80's have been combined with the long fore section of the cars of the late 00's. This is, in a sense, a logical evolution towards the present second generation turbo cars. But, as we have talked about before, the end result is very long cars, certainly ... 1984. 2008. 2018.
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Post by robmarsh on Mar 18, 2018 6:40:17 GMT
It is all to do with aero Mikael and aero grip as opposed to mechanical grip. Until the teams, the FIA and Liberty find a way to curtail expenditure on aero F1 will continue down this blind alley until only those 3 entities are involved. I am still looking forward to the season though and like Rene predict at least five different winners (drivers) and Seb to lift the crown.
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Post by René on Mar 18, 2018 10:28:47 GMT
The long cars are a mix of safety, better aero and the long power units. I will show one of my slot car comparisons again (I will take any opportunity to talk slot cars ) to show how the layout has changed. Okay, I have to admit this image looks even more dramatic with the 'Monaco spec' rear wing on the T4 but still. Looking at the position of the driver compared to the rear wheels you can see that the driver in the contemporary car is actually sitting more forward compared to the postion in the classic car. But relative to the entire car, Jody is sitting completely towards the front with his feet level or even in front of the front axle which is of course ridiculously dangerous. To improve this situation, the driver's position has gradually moved further backwards with the engine as a 'natural' limit. For safety reasons a crash structure in front of the driver was needed and so the cars became longer due to a longer nose (a bit like road cars where modern cars are bigger compared to cars of previous decades). At the same time, the aero wizards discovered that a longer coke bottle rear end works better than a shorter coke bottle so the rear of the car became longer. And since 2014 with the introduction of the hybrid power units with engine and batteries placed in line we have seen another big step in this 'longer is better' fixation. Of course the FIA should have stepped in and set a limit to this development to preserve the visual character of a Grand Prix car.
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Post by mikael on Mar 18, 2018 11:42:34 GMT
A very interesting comparison, René.
Somehow you easily get used to the contemporary dimensions. When seeing the cars live last fall at the Suzuka Circuit I didn't think they looked out of proportions; quite on the contrary, I thought the looked great.
On the contrary, the 312T4 now (in 2018) looks a bit stubby (to me at least). It should be kept in mind also that the cars now have double the power of the cars of the late 70's. It might not be too pleasant to have 1000HP in a car as short as the 312T4. I believe I mentioned in another thread that, when Takuma Sato debuted in F1 in 2002 he got quite a good deal of media attention here in Japan. Even NHK, Japan's equivalent of BBC, gave a portrait of him in the main 9PM News. (Normally they never, ever mention motor sport, so that was impressive.)
At that time (around 2002) a guy who is multi-handicapped (born without arms and legs) had written an, apparently, very good book about his situation and on strength of that he became a TV personality. (He's a very intelligent and pleasant man who later became a respected sports journalist, in spite of his difficult situation.) In 2002, he was invited by Fuji TV to meet Takuma Sato at the Japanese GP. (Their meeting was broadcast in Fuji TV's coverage of the GP.) Apparently he had never seen an F1 car before, and he was genuinely surprised that the cars were so small ! Something like the present generation of F1 cars might have been more like what he had imagined ... (This somehow made an impression on me and has stayed in memory.)
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Post by René on Mar 18, 2018 14:12:49 GMT
Mikael, how you see the cars is always in the eyes of the beholder, a personal experience. I remember seeing Jody's T5 up close in the Zolder paddock in 1980 and being amazed how small it was. But if you have never seen an F1 car for real before and you see it for the first time you will still be amazed and impressed. Yes, it is very (too) long but is still also very low! And to be honest, I do find the looks of the new Ferrari very impressive (sorry guys )
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Post by Carl on Mar 18, 2018 19:50:36 GMT
Mikael and Rene, I've really enjoyed the back and forth of your discussion, one that would not have occurred without being subjected to abuse on Motor Sport thanks to Disqus (sounds like disgust) We all seem to agree that current Formula One cars are essentially unattractive, looking after Newey's wizardry and winglets like awkwardly tall leprosy conveyances. Rene wisely wrote: "At the same time, the aero wizards discovered that a longer coke bottle rear end works better than a shorter coke bottle so the rear of the car became longer. And since 2014 with the introduction of the hybrid power units with engine and batteries placed in line we have seen another big step in this 'longer is better' fixation."
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And now for some abuse of decorum... The cars have become longer and uglier and no-one really likes the overly complicated hybrid engines. My proposal is to launch Formula One like a Space X rocket into the future by changing the entire concept, replacing overly long and ugly cars with pneumatic tubes molded to conform to every circuit (at Monaco, for example, they would be 2.074 miles in length) and replacing hybrid engines with state of the art compressed air systems. With no need of driving skill, riders would be propelled around each circuit within their team's proprietary tube at speeds limited only by the ingenuity of team engineers. The spectacle of speed is preserved, even enhanced, while prima donna drivers are shown the (pneumatic) door as a brave new world emerges. If you must know, Wild Turkey Bourbon...
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Post by René on Mar 19, 2018 8:33:02 GMT
Hurray for Wild Turkey Bourbon!
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Post by charleselan on Mar 19, 2018 10:15:45 GMT
Gentlemen I have a very simple solution here. Firstly remove two of the wheels; then get rid of all wings followed by the reinstatement of a "proper" internal combustion engine and hey presto..............
Oh! Wait a minute MotoGP..........
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Post by René on Mar 19, 2018 14:33:44 GMT
Gentlemen I have a very simple solution here. Firstly remove two of the wheels; then get rid of all wings followed by the reinstatement of a "proper" internal combustion engine and hey presto.............. Oh! Wait a minute MotoGP.......... I did see a demonstration lap of an electric bike before the race... how long will it take before these new technologies will enter Moto GP? I really did enjoy the Qatar race but in all honesty, and I know we're not all on the same page here, a motor bike race will never get me excited the way a car race and in particular a Formula One race does. I have always preferred the cars because I find them visually more interesting and exciting to watch. And a race wherein a Ferrari competes will always get my attention and passion stirred. Don't get me wrong, nothing against the bikes but the cars have always been more my 'thing'. And still are. I am hopeless.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 19:01:39 GMT
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