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Post by charleselan on Jan 9, 2022 15:46:35 GMT
Sadly I did not get the opportunity its to see Can-Am or Group 7 sports cars race in the flesh back when they were contemporary. I have seen them a few times later on when in historic meetings driven by wealthy amateur drivers, who although competent were not really at the level of Denny; Bruce; Dan; Peter etc. They certainly made the ground shake as they thundered by on the more modern circuits but it could have been nothing compare with that recounted so beautifully by Carl above. I did however see a live meeting televised back in 1964 which featured the very early beginnings of the Group 7 cars in Europe. This was the 1964 Aintree 200 meeting which had as its main feature the non championship F1 race which was notable for the fact that Jim Clark got tangled up with an errant back-marker and had a huge accident that wrote off the very new Lotus 33. Earlier in the day Jim came out in the also very new Lotus 30 and much was anticipated from this vehicle, however it never ran correctly all race and the car was also one of Chapman's worst designs, although to be fair it looked very good. Jim drive it manfully but was no match for Bruce McLaren in his Penske Cooper Oldsmobile. As a P.S. to my original post I have added this photo of Jim Clark at th very meeting described at Aintree.  Below is quite a rare photo of Jim at Riverside, not seen this picture before of a really good side view of the Lotus 30.  |
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Post by Carl on Jan 9, 2022 19:04:12 GMT
Interesting to ponder, that while "progress" in many ways has made contemporary racing less interesting, it has also made it much easier to enjoy great racing from the heyday of motorsport.
As a kid, I marveled at photos of these "beats" (as the series impressed the whole World, and virtually any motorsport magazine wrote about it) but I had no idea what they actually sounded like, or how fast they actually went around the circuits. Fascinating, actually, to be able to find out, now, fifty years later ...
A fantastic period in history also, with so much technological progress following in the wake of the "space race" (although, again, too much of it (technological progress) has proved to be damaging in so many ways ...).
In the late 60s, Can-Am would set faster pole positions in the summer than Formula One in the fall on the tracks at which both raced, Mosport and Watkins Glen. |
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Post by mikael on Jan 9, 2022 19:23:20 GMT
The first iteration of the Lotus 30 looked quite a bit scary (to drive, I imagine), without any roll bar whatsoever. It's a bit surprising, as the Formula One cars had roll bars at the time.
It seems that a roll bar was added a bit later the same year, though. And the Lotus 40 of the following year (1965) had a solid-looking "roll cage" (or at least a full-breadth roll structure).
This might be the second iteration of the Lotus 30 (?)
Another photo - also 1964.
The Lotus 40 of 1965 with a decent roll structure.
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Post by Carl on Jan 9, 2022 19:42:03 GMT
Sadly I did not get the opportunity its to see Can-Am or Group 7 sports cars race in the flesh back when they were contemporary. I have seen them a few times later on when in historic meetings driven by wealthy amateur drivers, who although competent were not really at the level of Denny; Bruce; Dan; Peter etc. They certainly made the ground shake as they thundered by on the more modern circuits but it could have been nothing compare with that recounted so beautifully by Carl above. I did however see a live meeting televised back in 1964 which featured the very early beginnings of the Group 7 cars in Europe. This was the 1964 Aintree 200 meeting which had as its main feature the non championship F1 race which was notable for the fact that Jim Clark got tangled up with an errant back-marker and had a huge accident that wrote off the very new Lotus 33. Earlier in the day Jim came out in the also very new Lotus 30 and much was anticipated from this vehicle, however it never ran correctly all race and the car was also one of Chapman's worst designs, although to be fair it looked very good. Jim drive it manfully but was no match for Bruce McLaren in his Penske Cooper Oldsmobile. As a P.S. to my original post I have added this photo of Jim Clark at th very meeting described at Aintree. Below is quite a rare photo of Jim at Riverside, not seen this picture before of a really good side view of the Lotus 30. John, A great picture, also new to me, of Clark eyeing the second apex of Turn 6 at the Times Grand Prix on October 11, 1964, an event sanctioned by the local region of the SCCA. Bruce McLaren was on pole and Parnelli Jones won in a Cooper-Ford, prevailing over an impressive field of drivers.
Cheers, Carl
Clark entering Turn 7 in his Lotus 23B at the same event one year earlier 
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Post by mikael on Jan 9, 2022 20:48:31 GMT
We can dream as much as we want, but ...
How interesting it would be if a Can-Am-like category was realized (in near future), with (just) one "green" constraint added: there is a maximum fuel flow rate of 100 kg/h (just like in F1). Do whatever you can with that! - with (citing Carl) a car that has covered wheels and satisfy certain safety conditions - otherwise no limitations.
That would even be a meaningful "green" challenge!
Addendum: that F1 can keep a 1000+ HP hybrid engine/motor running for about 2H with just a maximum of 100 kg gasoline per hour is already very impressive; but it would indeed be interesting to see what would be possible with just that single fuel constraint (and no further constraints).
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Post by mikael on Jan 15, 2022 13:31:39 GMT
Here is a nice and very interesting cut-away drawing of the Lotus 30. There are many interesting details to study. For one, the drawing illustrates well why the gear shifter/lever is to the right, and not in the centre.
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Post by Carl on Jan 22, 2022 0:33:09 GMT
The 1965 Times Grand Prix for Group 7 sports cars. Jim Clark, Dan Gurney, Jackie Stewart, Bruce McLaren, Graham Hill, Chris Amon, George Follmer, Richie Ginther, Parnelli Jones, Bob Bondurant, David Hobbs, both Revson brothers, Walt Hansgen, and the unobtrusive eventual winner, Hap Sharp in a Chaparral 2A
Hap Sharp dives into Turn 7 
In a preview of McLaren dominance of Can-Am, Bruce McLaren in his M1B about to pass Graham Hill's M1
Jim Clark's unequalled skill guided his Lotus 40 to an impressive second place
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Post by René on Jan 22, 2022 11:20:39 GMT
The picture of McLaren and Hill is fantastic. I also love the shots in the video where you see the cars going through the esses from behind. Must have been a terrific circuit.
I have quite a few of the cars in the video as slot car models. They still look so cool, exactly what a sportscar should look like even if they are from so long ago (from my year of birth!  ). |
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Post by charleselan on Jan 22, 2022 12:26:15 GMT
Great footage Carl from a brilliant race meeting, and what a series that was back then, probably the best years of Can-Am before the McLaren and then Penske domination.
A few years ago I saw the DVD of this race advertised and was tempted to buy it even if it was rather short, however thanks to YouTube we have it now for free which is something to treasure.
The drivers and cars who participated in that race was so impressive and one can but envy those who saw it in the flesh. One of my favourite cars being the Chaparral 2C that Hap Sharp used to win the event, and Hap was a fine driver who appeared to carry over the dress style of the drivers from the 1950's.
Jim Clark certainly gave that recaltricant Lotus 40 a going over by the look of things, I wonder if the nose damage was caused by contact with the half-tyre corner markers, shades of Fangio in the streamlined Mercedes Benz W196 at Silverstone in 1954.
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Post by chrisb on Jan 23, 2022 10:10:48 GMT
Cheers Carl, that was brilliant, just how motor racing should be, a great drive by Bruce was also a highlight, with some great marques represented. At one Donington historic meetings a few years ago there was Lotus 40 being raced, well driven anyway, it really was a beautiful looking car, smaller than I realised but sounded great, it must have been incredible to have seen Jimmy race it - oh to have seen Jimmy in a Porsche 917 or a Can-Am McLaren my word that would have been so so special...
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Post by René on Apr 3, 2024 16:15:04 GMT
If you don't know what to watch on the tele, settle in for this fantastic, one and a half hour film about the Can-Am championship 'Can Am - The Speed Odyssey'.
From the first race to the Porsche years, a great overview with beautiful quality images. Enjoy!
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Post by mikael on Apr 3, 2024 17:49:07 GMT
From the first race to the Porsche years, a great overview with beautiful quality images. Enjoy!
Wonderful! Yet, watching the amazing evolution through those years, it's hard not to become a little sad ... With all the problems modern racing (and in particular Formula One) has gotten itself tangled up in, it's tempting to get the thought that the sport is stalemate. At any rate, it's hard to imagine any exciting evolution (like the evolution that took place in our lifetime) in the future.
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Post by Carl on Apr 3, 2024 19:09:52 GMT
Thank you, René! This wonderful film may be at the same level of greatness as the Can-Am itself, arguably the most exciting race series with definitely the most heartpounding, earth-shaking race cars ever conceived. The multi-talented Sam Posey (racer, writer, architect, painter) narrates with studied grace. Although he never raced in the Canadian-American Challenge, his ability to describe motorsport is unrivaled. Posey in F5000  |
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Post by Carl on Apr 3, 2024 22:28:35 GMT
A reprint of an impression I will never forget:
A lasting memory of Can-Am when rules were minimal (fenders covering wheels, two seats and safety equipment) and engine development unlimited, was the sound and fury of the insanely powerful Group 7 cars on the first race lap. It's hard to describe the impact of the field still in loose formation with 20,000 angry horsepower at full throttle and bellowing down the high speed esses at Riverside in your direction. The grandstand at Turn 6 had a steel frame with wooden stairs and seats that would bounce ominously and fluctuate with the sound waves of the passing atmospheric disturbance. First-time spectators would glance nervously at their companions and women sometimes take hold of the nearest arm for assurance; once I was a designated friend for the day when a nice woman held my arm for comfort. No-one even thought about sitting until the field had settled down, when normal breathing would resume. The violent phenomenon had passed like a controlled category 5 tornado, leaving everyone smiling like idiots, comparable to riding a huge wooden roller coaster having a near vertical drop, with the thrill of primal fear survived. |
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Post by René on Apr 4, 2024 10:43:55 GMT
The Can-Am Championship was probably the purest form of high-level racing that ever existed. If time travel existed I would definitely watch a Can-Am race! But it only lasted a few years and ultimately collapsed due to its own 'no restrictions' principle. That is also the complexity of modern racing. I don't think this will ever be possible again. Carl, what a fantastic description of what Can-Am was. I feel it in my stomach.  |
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