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Post by Carl on Jul 6, 2020 4:27:57 GMT
great clip, were the American media still peed off with Jimmy after Indy do you think? Chris, There was no reason for anyone to be angry with Clark or Lotus. There was opposition from established USAC drivers afraid of the radically new rear-engine designs and worried they'd have to give up their beloved roadsters, which by 1965 most had done and the local media may have played up that angle, but by 1964, AJ Foyt, who'd been loudest in opposition, was solidly in Clark's corner and the following year drove a Lotus 34.
Parnelli Jones won the 500 despite an obvious late-race oil leak, Lotus and other teams argued but did not protest, and Jim Clark impressed everyone with his speed. Jackie Stewart once said that Parnelli Jones was the smoothest of all at Indianapolis, high praise from someone familiar with Clark's ability. Jones ultimately was approached by Lotus, but like others, declined to cross the Atlantic and race against European drivers on tracks they knew well.
-Yankee Doodle Dandy
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Post by Carl on Jul 6, 2020 5:34:42 GMT
great clip, were the American media still peed off with Jimmy after Indy do you think? Not sure Chris, I think it was more a case of incompetence than anything else. He was the reigning WC and one would have thought he would have been mentioned in exhausted terms not completely overlooked. One thing I always note about some of these US features is their overzealous eulogies to their own national drivers, I hope Carl isn't offended by this comment as it just an observation that I have gained over the years. Interestingly the announcer mentioned Graham Hill as being present but he failed to get featured at all in the race coverage, no wonder really when one considers he was driving a little 1600cc Lotus 23 which had no chance of a major placement. John Charles, I would say the favoritism had more to do with ratings than conviction. Depending on the state of journalism, the networks and newspapers would often shamelessly hype "the hometown hero" as a cynical device to boost the audience. Hasn't this also been a tradition in other countries where print and broadcast journalism periodically compromise integrity? - Chas Foster Kane -- Citation --
This response has been nominated by fawning associates for a Pulitzer Prize
in the condensed self-righteous defense mechanism category.
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Post by chrisb on Jul 6, 2020 7:05:32 GMT
good point Carl, especially the AJ comment and a great line from Orson, one of my least favourite films,
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Post by charleselan on Jul 6, 2020 12:54:07 GMT
Not sure Chris, I think it was more a case of incompetence than anything else. He was the reigning WC and one would have thought he would have been mentioned in exhausted terms not completely overlooked. One thing I always note about some of these US features is their overzealous eulogies to their own national drivers, I hope Carl isn't offended by this comment as it just an observation that I have gained over the years. Interestingly the announcer mentioned Graham Hill as being present but he failed to get featured at all in the race coverage, no wonder really when one considers he was driving a little 1600cc Lotus 23 which had no chance of a major placement. John Charles, I would say the favoritism had more to do with ratings than conviction. Depending on the state of journalism, the networks and newspapers would often shamelessly hype "the hometown hero" as a cynical device to boost the audience. Hasn't this also been a tradition in other countries where print and broadcast journalism periodically compromise integrity? - Chas Foster Kane -- Citation --
This response has been nominated by fawning associates for a Pulitzer Prize
in the condensed self-righteous defense mechanism category.
Carl, Of course every country has this bias, none more so than the English and I have heard that the French are truly appalling in sporting events like the Tour de France where they aren't averse to accusing other nationalities of actually cheating. I think it is more the way I hear the American commentators going on about the competitors from the USA. Nothing more so obvious than back in the 1990's when I became interested in the Supercross series that was transmitted in full most weeks a day after the event on late night UK sports channels. I used to record it on VHS and watch it the following evening and the commentary was so biased towards the American competitors like Jeremy McGrath; Kevin Windum & Rickie Charmichael etc. A lot of French and South African world motocross stars moved over to race in the States (more money available obviously than the world stage) and the joy these commentators got from them being beaten was almost bizarre. John Charles |
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Post by Carl on Jul 6, 2020 16:10:58 GMT
John Charles, I would say the favoritism had more to do with ratings than conviction. Depending on the state of journalism, the networks and newspapers would often shamelessly hype "the hometown hero" as a cynical device to boost the audience. Hasn't this also been a tradition in other countries where print and broadcast journalism periodically compromise integrity? - Chas Foster Kane -- Citation --
This response has been nominated by fawning associates for a Pulitzer Prize
in the condensed self-righteous defense mechanism category.
Carl, Of course every country has this bias, none more so than the English and I have heard that the French are truly appalling in sporting events like the Tour de France where they aren't averse to accusing other nationalities of actually cheating. I think it is more the way I hear the American commentators going on about the competitors from the USA. Nothing more so obvious than back in the 1990's when I became interested in the Supercross series that was transmitted in full most weeks a day after the event on late night UK sports channels. I used to record it on VHS and watch it the following evening and the commentary was so biased towards the American competitors like Jeremy McGrath; Kevin Windum & Rickie Charmichael etc. A lot of French and South African world motocross stars moved over to race in the States (more money available obviously than the world stage) and the joy these commentators got from them being beaten was almost bizarre. John Charles John Charles,
I seldom watched Supercross, but have an impression of the loud idiotic broadcast jingoism you describe, which is a damn shame when allowed. Network executives, most of them ignorant of the skills demanded in motocross and acutely focused on spectacle, normally set the parameters of stupidity and may have assumed few in the audience would have your in-depth knowledge of the sport.
-Carl
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Post by charleselan on Jul 6, 2020 17:40:16 GMT
I really got into the American Supercross back in the 1990's Carl, I found it excellent viewing if a little contrived from the perspective of a former motocross aficionado. The commentator was actually quite good and very experienced but did have this tendency to be overly "supportive" of the riders from the USA, he actually retired towards the end of the period that I watched the sport and it wasn't quite the same without the old chap.
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Post by Carl on Jul 6, 2020 18:01:01 GMT
I really got into the American Supercross back in the 1990's Carl, I found it excellent viewing if a little contrived from the perspective of a former motocross aficionado. The commentator was actually quite good and very experienced but did have this tendency to be overly "supportive" of the riders from the USA, he actually retired towards the end of the period that I watched the sport and it wasn't quite the same without the old chap. I just had a fast look and Dave Despain at one time announced Supercross, but he was always balanced and knowledgeable. I clearly remember losing interest when motocross was moved into the artificial stadium environment. |
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Post by charleselan on Jul 6, 2020 18:55:14 GMT
I really got into the American Supercross back in the 1990's Carl, I found it excellent viewing if a little contrived from the perspective of a former motocross aficionado. The commentator was actually quite good and very experienced but did have this tendency to be overly "supportive" of the riders from the USA, he actually retired towards the end of the period that I watched the sport and it wasn't quite the same without the old chap. I just had a fast look and Dave Despain at one time announced Supercross, but he was always balanced and knowledgeable. I clearly remember losing interest when motocross was moved into the artificial stadium environment. Carl, It would appear that Dave Despain was indeed the commentator in the early 1990's (before I began to take an interest) and the guy I am thinking of is Art (something), he features on this YT clip I have just found. John Charles |
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Post by mikael on Jul 6, 2020 19:40:04 GMT
What fascinated me about supercross (mostly in the early 1980, when I tried my own hand at motocross) was not so much the sport itself, but rather that it was so good a "learning school" - much to the shock of the established European elite. The tricks that the best American riders picket up at the very tight stadium motocross races often made them much faster also on the classical "natural" tracks.
Here is a good early 80's example of this: a duel between supercross star Broc Glover of California and two-times World Champion Håkan Carlqvist of Sweden, at the 1983 500cc US GP at Carlsbad, CA. Carlqvist's style is smooth and flowing and elegant - typical (top-level) European. Glover's style is very different. He sits much more up front - a very "aggressively" looking style. Not nearly as elegant as Carlquist's - yet it's actually a good deal faster!
Youtube link: |
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Post by Carl on Jul 7, 2020 0:02:19 GMT
I just had a fast look and Dave Despain at one time announced Supercross, but he was always balanced and knowledgeable. I clearly remember losing interest when motocross was moved into the artificial stadium environment. Carl, It would appear that Dave Despain was indeed the commentator in the early 1990's (before I began to take an interest) and the guy I am thinking of is Art (something), he features on this YT clip I have just found. John Charles That must be Art Eckman, apparently everyone's favorite! 
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Post by Carl on Jul 7, 2020 1:05:10 GMT
The attached film is pre- Can-Am in name but really was the forerunner to that series. This colour film of the 1963 Monterey Pacific Grand Prix featured a pretty star studded field with some top line grand prix talent also showing up. Amazingly in the introduction by the narrator all were mentioned except fr the most important of all, one James Clark. In the field were a great mixture of cars with the first big engined sports cars like the Shelby Cooper Cobras ( basically Cooper Monaco's with bid V8 Ford motors installed) and Jim Hall's first rear/mid engined Chaparral 2, along with other weird assortments. Some of the cars were the more traditional European sports racers like the bright red Arciero Brothers Lotus 19 Climax which was entrusted to Jim Clark. It was great to see footage of Jim in this almost iconic race car that later saw some success with another great driving it Daniel Sexton Gurney. Eventually there race was won by young Dave McDonald in one of the Shelby Cooper Cobra's. In a short but bright career Dave McDonald sadly perished a few months later. A very cool film I've just had a chance to enjoy (there's no rest for the wicked). The superbly talented Dave McDonald was killed at Indy, as a young rookie accepting to drive a Mickey Thompson car other drivers had avoided, an unbalanced car that should not have passed scrutineering. I remember listening on a transistor radio as the tragedy unfolded, the first lap fireball also killing veteran Eddie Sachs, the driver who the year before had assaulted Parnelli Jones after spinning twice on his leaking oil in the closing laps.
Laguna Seca was faster, better and more challenging at that time as first laid out, with Turn 1 disappearing over the hill, the first of a series of ultra fast left hand turns before the climb to Turn 8.
Al Holbert's father Bob, Indy veteran and fine road racer Lloyd Ruby, and Mark Donohue's mentor Walt Hansgen were at the front until fading. Jim Clark is strangely overlooked at the beginning, perhaps until someone passes a note reminding the broadcaster of his World Championship, after which he's given close attention until having to park his Lotus 19 at the approach to Turn 8's corkscrew.
The dangers of racing have recently been discussed here, and three of the top six finishers here were soon killed.
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Post by Carl on Jul 7, 2020 4:32:32 GMT
One week earlier, here are the same cast at Riverside with commentary from North America's least effusive announcer.  |
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Post by chrisb on Jul 7, 2020 8:53:15 GMT
great clip Carl, thanks, that was such a dreadful accident that took their lives away, and controversial as well if memory serves me, some accusations how Eddie perished or something?
Mikael, I totally agree with you on a much smaller scale, I try and do a lot of touring in Europe, the guys on the tour who are the quickest are always the ones who have done 'off-roading' they seem to have much more balance and awareness of their and the bikes capability than mere mortals, the clever ones learn from them - staying within their limits, some others don't, but it is something I would encourage any road biker to do, along with advanced training is to do off-road stuff as well - I did some in Scotland a few years ago, it was amusing shall we say, but obviously didn't go fast enough as I didn't fall off
John, like you I was brought up watching scrambling on a saturday afternoon with Dave Bickers and Jeff Smith et al, but struggled with what i called the stadium stuff,
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Post by charleselan on Jul 7, 2020 14:52:26 GMT
We are good at diversions and have succeeded again in going from Can-Am to Supercross, all through commentary, but this is what we are about here, great stuff.
Thanks Carl, Art Eckman was indeed the man. He was pretty good and seemed to fit the role in Supercross very well. It used to tickle me when he came out with his favourite sound bite of "they go bar to bar" when ever two or more riders were duelling for position. I have the feeling Art retired from active duty towards the end of the 1990's and his replacement as lead commentator was not a patch on him, but where have we seen this before.
Great post Mikael about riding techniques in motocross and the change in style brought about by American Supercross. I wonder if the positioning of the rider much more over the front of the bike was initiated by the riders them selves or brought about by the design of the later motocross bikes.
Back in the 1950/60's the rider was much more central or to the rear of the machine, probably as a result the bikes still being based on road orientated machines and the need to get rear wheel grip, the courses being so much different to the man made designs of today.
When i rode my motocross bike back in the mid 1960's that was very much the case, but strangely when I came back to motorcycles some 30 years later the first bike I rode was 125cc Honda "Trail" bike that the School had on their fleet and that had a front bias. It seemed just natural as soon as I got on the machine to ride in that manner, right over the front wheel.
Going back to "Carla" I probably only saw him ride once and that as when he dominated the British 500cc GP at Farleigh Castle in the mid 1980's (not sure of the exact date without research). I and my parents had not been to many motocross meetings for a couple of years but decided to go to that event and it was as if we had not been away. "Carla" was absolutely brilliant at that time, one of the greats that is for certain.
For me there was no comparison with scrambling and motocross in the 1960's and super cross, Chris. I just happened to turn on the suoercross when its as shown on Channel 5's late night sports program along with Indycar. I became interested and thoroughly enjoyed it at the time, but it was not the same as the motorcycle sport I had grown up with and what initially sparked my interest.
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Post by Carl on Jul 7, 2020 17:22:20 GMT
great clip Carl, thanks, that was such a dreadful accident that took their lives away, and controversial as well if memory serves me, some accusations how Eddie perished or something? Chris, The explosion was massive and there were some accusations and assumptions afterward. The best explanation I've found is on wikipedia:
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