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Post by René on Nov 26, 2017 12:27:26 GMT
Well gents, we may have our first serious debate here. The Round Table litmus test!  But seriously, talking Senna and/or Schumacher will always create debate. I think Rob has some good points that things are never black and white. Mr. Prost certainly knew how to play politics and also use his elbows when he felt it needed. Chris, it's funny you mention Martin Brundle. Yes, he was a victim of Senna's ruthlessness but many years later he was doing his best to convince Jeremy Clarkson that not Gilles Villeneuve but Ayrton Senna was the best driver ever! And Schumacher has always been a very nice guy... outside the car. Both of them were exceptionally good which makes it such a shame they could be such a bullies behind the wheel. As for the 1990 Japanese Grand Prix incident, I always felt and still do that Senna should have been disqualified from the championship as Schumacher was in 1997. Senna's move was way more dangerous. My personal opinion. |
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Post by mikael on Nov 26, 2017 12:49:50 GMT
Time for some more F1 beauty; Team Lotus in the Spa pitlane, June 1965. The 33's of Jim Clark (17) and Mike Spence.
A beautiful photo, René.
The green Lotuses looked great with their red steering wheels and dashboards. I often wondered if there's a special story behind this unusual (steering wheel / dashboard) colour-choice. Since the colour apparently changed to black for the 1969 season and onwards I sometimes wondered if it was Jim Clark's choice; but it seems that all cars had red steering wheels up to and with the 1968 season.
Would love to hear / read about it if anyone knows about the story behind.
Sorry for stating a different question in the middle of the Senna discussion.
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Post by charleselan on Nov 26, 2017 12:51:18 GMT
Time for some more F1 beauty; Team Lotus in the Spa pitlane, June 1965. The 33's of Jim Clark (17) and Mike Spence. Just to be nerdy, once again  . In the foreground we have Jim's race winning car with the 32 valve Coventry Climax motor fitted; in front of this car is the "old" R5 chassis I believe with the standard high exhaust motor (the car Jim used to win at Clermont Ferrand). Furthest away is the car fitted with the "Flat Plane Crank" 24 valve Coventry Climax engine. Fabulous picture René. JC  |
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 26, 2017 15:17:47 GMT
Rene/Chrisb
I agree with your points and I abhor unfair driving of any kind even if it is from my favourite driver. I do think though that Prost, great driver though he was, gets made out to be a saint far more than he deserves, especially by the likes of Nigel Roebuck. Senna, another great driver, and like Michael Schumacher, a great human being outside of the car, gets to be made the villain far more than he deserves. Senna and Schumacher were incredibly competitive, unfortunately to the degree that in extreme circumstances they thought of only winning at all costs. It is because of these character traits that Senna ranks behind Fangio, Clark and Stewart in my list of greatest drivers. Schumacher ranks further down because of those character traits, the fact that he wanted undeniable number one status and that his competition was not so great. Having said all that I still don't agree that Senna can be held responsible for the dirty driving of today. He has been dead 23 years and of the current drivers only Lewis, Kimi and Fernando were probably old enough to be influenced unduly by him. After all it is up to the individual drivers to choose the way they race, very few people behaved like Farina because it was not within the norms of decent society to do so. Even as a young street racer of 17 back in the 70s one knew that you did not cut the other driver off or force him off the road.
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Post by René on Nov 26, 2017 16:12:03 GMT
Good post Rob. You can't blame one person for the behavior of entire generations. People have their own responsibility for how they act and behave.
But there is also no denying that it was their greatness and success, of Senna and Schumacher, that made their influence on younger generations so strong. There lies the problem I think, we're not talking about your everyday driver. These are arguably two of the best but certainly two of the most successful drivers ever. That brings a responsibility. But their will to win was so strong, their genius was sometimes overshadowed with red mist moments. Still happens today...
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 26, 2017 16:43:13 GMT
Agree Rene it is a pity that they did those things and it is not just in motor racing that top sportsmen damage their reputations-so sad really. Maybe those flaws are the price they pay for focussing on one thing only for so long. Nico Rosberg was very balanced in his view. There was a nice interview with him today before the race.
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Post by Carl on Nov 27, 2017 1:08:56 GMT
Rob and Chris,
I find myself nodding in agreement to large portions of both of your comments. I know full well that my preferences at times color my judgments.
I recall reading about Farina fatally pushing someone off track, I think at Monaco, unintended but perhaps also not regretted. Stirling Moss said Farina was a dirty driver, one he never trusted.
I think it's valid to say that many who idolized Senna were more accepting of ruthlessness, Schumacher beyond all the others, Senna included, and never more flagrantly than at Adelaide in 1994. Perhaps he knew Ecclestone would exonerate him.
As a person, Senna may have nursed his grievances longer than others. He seemed tense and angry much of the time. I remember when he crashed out of the lead at Monaco and immediately ran to his nearby apartment... not normal behavior. At the same time, Alain Prost was supposedly very skilled at needling his teammate, subtle at times, at other times conspicuous.
If my driving skills had taken me beyond Mulholland Drive and into Formula One, I may have quickly learned to give no quarter. There may still be time to find out...
Cheers, Carl
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 27, 2017 6:42:45 GMT
Hi Carl you are definitely not alone in allowing preferences to colour judgements. We all do it and it what makes motor sport so emotional and enjoyable to follow and discuss with fellow enthusiasts. I never really warmed to Prost for some reason, even before Senna really hit the headlines. In fact my brother and I used to pick seven drivers and "bet" on the races. I had selected Prost back in 1980 because in those days I used to get the magazines before my brother so had inside knowledge. In 1985 he had beaten me to picking Stefan Johannson, basically by being rude on the phone. When I politely said hello his first words were I've got Johansson. That was what I had phoned to do, lay my claim on Stefan, but he beat me to it. I was in a quandry because he had Alboreto too and I had no Ferrari drivers and the 1985 car was beautiful. So what to do. The only one of my team that I was prepared to let go was Prost so off he went. A bad decision but done with the heart. I think Senna immersed himself in the sport almost to the exclusion of all else and wanted not just to win but to annihilate all others. Prost wanted to win at the slowest speed. The sad thing is that those two polarised supporters, you couldn't like both, almost like Hamilton and Vettel with some people today. Something I have regretted for a long time is that because of my support for Senna I refused to see the skill displayed by Prost at the same time so I only really got half the enjoyment. It is very seldom you get such competition between two of the greatest drivers of all time. I missed the total enjoyment back in 1987 to 1991, I don't want to do so again. In any case I have enjoyed this debate on this site with you gentlemen. It is so nice to be able to do so in a calm and friendly manner rather than the anger and vitriol experienced on the other site. Look forward to seeing you on the grid Carl.
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Post by charleselan on Nov 27, 2017 11:21:42 GMT
Gentlemen, I doff my chapeau to some truly excellent posts in this thread, none more so than the sub plot regarding driver ethics (if I may use such a term). Yesterday I spent a good half hour writing my thoughts and lost the flaming lot when I found myself without internet connection upon pressing "Create Post", and no way of retrieving the darn thing!! Note to self, always write it first on Notepad or similar and then copy & paste  . In short, I was never really a Prost fan and much preferred Ayrton especially when he drove for "my team"  . I had seen Senna race in the Uk from his early days and was at Thruxton one cold Autumnal day when he made his Formula Three debut, He simply drove away from everyone including Brundle in Jordan's Ralt! The following season he and Martin locked horns a few times and it was then we began to see Ayrton's "dark side"! It was at that time that the authorities in the UK should have dealt with it, and without mercy, but they failed to do so abysmally. Thus the dye was set. Ayrton’s totally uncompromising attitude on track was to this fan/enthusiast the most worrying aspect, where if racing with another competitor it was a case of let me through or we will both crash. That is not motor racing. Alain Prost was without question a political animal, but he was not a driver who put others or himself at risk. An example of Alain’s politics can be illustrated by the words of Nigel Mansell, like him or not, he is adamant to this day that when team mates with Prost at Ferrari the Frenchman got the team to exchange their chassis overnight at Monza. If that were the case it is a pretty despicable act and one that would leave Alain in a pretty poor light. Ayrton’s actions at the 1990 Japanese GP were deplorable, no matter how incensed he was about the conspiracy he felt had gone on between Balestre & Prost. He should have been banned for at least one season for those actions, however he was bigger than the sport and yet more precident was set. I firmly believe that Ayrton’s actions were not cynical but derived from a passion and religious belief that he was impenetrable. Michael Schumacher on the other hand was cynical in the moves he pulled, and to be honest they were embarrassing to watch from a guy who had such ability. Yet again the authorities failed to take affirmative action with him from the outset; his move on Damon Hill in Australia 1994 should have resulted in him being stripped of the title, absolutely no question. The Ayrton v’s Gilles matter is an interesting one René, and to be honest Brundle doesn’t know what he is talking about. I would say that Gilles was faster and more natural, but Ayrton was more complete if we remove his ruthlessness. Then again I would also put Stirling and Ronnie into the same debate as i firmly believe they were on a par for speed and natural ability. However at the very pinnacle we have Jimmy; Fangio and JYS………. |
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Post by René on Nov 27, 2017 12:22:32 GMT
It is so nice to be able to do so in a calm and friendly manner rather than the anger and vitriol experienced on the other site. Amen to that Rob! |
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Post by Carl on Nov 27, 2017 18:46:04 GMT
Also affecting driving standards was Bernie Ecclestone, who admired ruthlessness by those at the top, whether in business or driving.
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Post by René on Nov 27, 2017 21:39:14 GMT
My wife fully supports my motorsport obsession plus my model making obsession. I got her to attend two live Grand Prix and she now watches some of the races with me. Plus when we were first married we used to play slot cars every Sunday evening for two hours with her parents. It was going well until her dad and I used ground effect magnets to win one meeting. There was more noise from the other two than from the whole formula one paddock after the 1978 Swedish GP. Rob, this is so fantastic!  I cannot, with the best of my abilities, imagine me racing slot cars with my wife and her parents! But lucky you, that must have been fun!  |
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Post by chrisb on Nov 27, 2017 21:49:43 GMT
a most excellent discussion gentlemen with some wonderful debating questions, I liked Alain, not because of his political nous or possible deviousness, but his smooth and easy style, win at low cost, but Ayrton whilst at Lotus I revered, not sure what Colin would have made of him but, and whatever else about Ayrton he had some personality that really was transfixing at times, but he reminded me of a sensitive girlfriend who could say what they liked but woe betide if you returned the compliment, I saw him playing with his radio controlled cars after practice one year, off camera, with his mates, laughing , joking and relaxed,
I can't put Senna in Gilles's class because of his ethics but his speed was phenomenal but then so was Alain's - the question in my head - was Ayrton the most driven of racers we have known?
JC, I think you were spot-on, I watched Ayrton in FF2000 and don't remember too many clashes, I could be wrong it is a long time ago after all, but the authorities by letting him get away with his driving 'tactics' in F3 set the precedent and they are responsible for so many and so much carnage that has followed
and again JC, Michael was clinically and cynically ruthless, without remorse for his actions knowing he would get away with it, without doubt Damon was the true 1994 WDC, now not to malign or slander anyone but I recently saw something to the effect that Ayrton was calling Michael and the Benetton team cheats in 1994 before Imola, I seem to remember something about traction control but the details are very hazy - was there anything in that story?
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Post by René on Nov 27, 2017 23:27:41 GMT
After all the interesting discussions time for an iconic shot again. How cool is this!?  François Cevert in the Tyrrell-Ford 006, Spain 1973.  |
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 28, 2017 6:57:17 GMT
Stunning pic Rene-thanks-another of my favourite drivers cut down too soon. Surely France's first world champion in 1974 had he survived. Interestingly that Tyrrell 006/7 had a very short wheelbase that only Stewart and Cevert could handle. One of my alltime favourite cars. The following year Scheckter and depailler were all at sea and Derek Gardner built the longer wheelbase 007. Another one of my favourites.
Chrisb your comment re alain Prost is spot on and it is only years later when I look back that I regret I did not follow him more closely. He was so smooth. I remember at Kyalami in 1984 he started at the back of the grid and his drive through the field to second place was awesome. He was visibly faster than anyone else. That drive is forgotten by today's commentators when they rave about Hamilton or Vettel's drive form the back to third. In 1984 there were no safety cars-you had to do it on your own-just you and your car against 25 other drivers and without the car advantage that some of the guys today have.
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. I had seen Senna race in the Uk from his early days and was at Thruxton one cold Autumnal day when he made his Formula Three debut, He simply drove away from everyone including Brundle in Jordan's Ralt! The following season he and Martin locked horns a few times and it was then we began to see Ayrton's "dark side"! It was at that time that the authorities in the UK should have dealt with it, and without mercy, but they failed to do so abysmally. Thus the dye was set. 
