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Post by Carl on Jan 22, 2023 18:25:09 GMT
oh and congratulations Carl on reaching 5000 posts, excellent effort and a lot of knowledge and experience you have shared with us. Thank you. Thank you, Rob. Time passes so fast when we're having fun and it remains a great pleasure to compare notes with all the knowledgeable enthusiasts around our table.  |
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Post by mikael on Nov 17, 2024 11:49:57 GMT
Yet another "Best F1 Drivers of All Time" list:
Such a list is sure to cause disagreements ... Yet if one considers those who are included as group, without focusing too much on the specific order within this group, then it seems quite reasonable (to me) ...
As a much simpler approach, I think that the "win percentage" together with the "pole position percentage" (with a minimum number of entries, e.g. 15) really says a great deal:
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P.S. As to the Wikipedia lists, it's interesting to notice that Lando Norris is included in the list "Most races before first win". That doesn't bode too well; on the other hand, three World Champions are also included in this list: Jenson Button, Nico Rosberg, and Mika Hakkinen.
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Post by René on Nov 17, 2024 19:08:13 GMT
A list like that will always be open for debate. Was Senna really better than Prost? But these are definitely the best F1 drivers of all time. Most on this list are also on the list of highest win percentage so that makes sense.
It’s also interesting that all drivers on the list are (multiple) world champions… except for Gilles Villeneuve and Stirling Moss. Both should at least have one title to their names but even without, they will always be regarded as one of the best ever.
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Post by Carl on Nov 17, 2024 19:36:25 GMT
This is a favorite debate on cold, wet days around the fire in pubs and clubs, bars and streetcars. There are so many considerations that can affect the result when included or excluded and judgment is easily muddied by national pride. One statistic that can exclude great talent is race wins and championships. Ronnie Peterson had tremendous natural talent and should be on anyone's list of all time greats. He lacked only judgment and timing in choosing teams. My perennial choice, all relevance considered, is Oscar Kovaleski, whose organization of Polish racing drivers, Polish non-racing drivers and non-Polish racing drivers established an algorithm that stunned engineers and team principles into silence.  Jim Hall and General Motors adapted his innovations  Too modest for podiums, he showed others the perfect line  |
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Post by mikael on Nov 19, 2024 16:42:06 GMT
Ronnie Peterson had tremendous natural talent and should be on anyone's list of all time greats. He lacked only judgment and timing in choosing teams.
It would have been great for Ronnie to be with Ferrari in 1974 (and onward). I wonder if he ever had the possibility? One could suspect this, as Ferrari knew him well as their sports car driver. But perhaps he simply had more confidence in - and higher hopes for - Lotus. But, if so, then - yes, that turned out to be a major mistake. Ferrari progressed greatly during those years, while Lotus was "caught" in a downward spiral.
Or was Ferrari perhaps simply not interested in having him as one of their Formula One drivers?
I seem to recall having heard or read (very many years ago) that Ronnie was not a good test- and development driver. (But I remember also that JC argued that this was completely wrong - yes, we have talked about this before.)
It was probably clear for Ferrai in 1973 that they needed such a driver badly; and they were probably quick to see that Niki Lauda was a most excellent one to that end.
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Post by Carl on Nov 19, 2024 21:00:13 GMT
I saw Ronnie Peterson several times in Formula One at Long Beach and Group 2 CSL 3.0 BMWs at Riverside. His combination of speed and smoothness appeared magical and in defiance of physical laws.
We may never know what decision (and by whom) prompted Peterson's choice of Lotus. With all due respect to our learned friend John Charles, Peterson was so fast in the junior formulas that setting up a car was often unnecessary. He could let someone else do the set-up, then get in and set fastest time, but Ferrari wanted more from a number one driver and wisely chose the analytical Lauda. With talented Clay Regazzoni already onboard, the team was complete. Peterson moved from team to team during the 70s, first with a privateer March, then two years with the team, then a productive stint at Lotus, then one year in the well-designed March 761, then Tyrrell's experimental P34B, his best result a third at Spa, but also ten retirements! He must at times have frustrated team principles with his immense natural speed and nonchalance about development. To be fair, Mario Andretti had more set-up knowledge than almost anyone, including the esoteric technique from USAC Sprint Cars of stagger, a slight variance of size between the rear tyres to allow optimum grip and minimum lap time. But he was a jerk who demanded subservience in his contract, which may have been the main disadvantage for Peterson in 1978. His two wins came only after Andretti had trouble. |
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Post by René on Nov 19, 2024 21:36:57 GMT
Great posts.
Ronnie Peterson was one of the fastest and most naturally gifted drivers the sport had ever seen. No one will argue that. But Ferrari, and especially Mauro Forghieri, knew Peterson very well. The undisputed #1 car in the sports car team was driven by Ickx and Andretti, the #2 car by Regazzoni and Redman and the #3 car by Peterson and Schenken. And this was the hierarchy.
Niki Lauda was already making his name as a very good test and development driver and with Ickx leaving the team, the choice for him made sense.
Indeed a sensitive subject for JC but, Ronnie really wasn’t the best test driver. His ‘weakness’ was probably that he could drive anything fast by naturally driving around the limits of the car. Interestingly, Forghieri once stated that Gilles Villeneuve was actually a good test driver, even if he seemed very like Ronnie in his natural speed. You need an analytical mind for testing I guess.
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 20, 2024 10:28:57 GMT
Forghieri's best two test drivers were Amon and Tambay.
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Post by René on Nov 20, 2024 16:49:25 GMT
Forghieri's best two test drivers were Amon and Tambay. Yes, he really liked to work with Chris and Patrick. That's well documented.   |
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