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Post by chrisb on Aug 28, 2020 6:37:17 GMT
excellent Rob, funny how we develop a splendid thread out of a rant about a nonsense article published elsewhere,
Jenks always rated Ascari higher than Fangio, but it would have been mouthwatering with that beautiful D50 - the Mercs and a host of younger drivers trying their best, 4 each sounds about right
Jimmy vs Stirling, well possibly Rob both would have still been blighted by mechanical woes, but 62 Stirling in a Ferrari vs Graham and Jimmy, can't see anything but the same result as it finished, 63 was Jimmy's year, 64 would have been close but 65 - Jimmy was starting to gap everyone by a much larger margin, and then the 3 litre days until say 72, Stirling would have been in his element in 66, Jimmy dominant in 68, I reckon you are right there Rob JYS in 69, Jimmy in 70 and JYS in 71 with Jimmy and Ronnie in 72 now that would have been brilliant,
Ronnie's height never seemed to bother his speed
Gilles vs Ayrton, one fair in love and racing the other ruthless to the point but both full of speed and charisma, throw in Prost, Niki, Keke, Nigel and yes although I am not a fan he was quick Piquet, those brilliant turbo years would have been even more exciting, I do think Gilles would have fought back on Ayrton's driving tactics but a lot would have depended on what cars they were all driving, my word wouldn't it have been incredible,
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Post by robmarsh on Aug 28, 2020 7:47:24 GMT
You are right Chris, this what if thread is turning out to be fun, based purely on our instinctive knowledge and feel for the times in question. No detailed analysis of drivers' weights, head sizes, upper body strength except to say that they all had incredible intestinal fortitude.
I have watched two documentaries in the last week courtesy of Sky. One was on Ronnie Peterson which I think was discussed on a thread earlier in the year but i hadn't seen it. It was good, but like the Jim Clark one incredibly sad. I can still remember where I was when I found out that Ronnie had died. On the Sunday evening I was on guard duty at the Rhodesian Artillery Depot when I heard of his crash. The news was scant but said that he had broken both legs, there was no information as to the severity of his injuries. The next morning I had to go on a final, small but rather harrowing operation before I would be stood down for a couple of months. Operation over I returned home only be greeted by my younger brother, saying "It's a pity about Ronnie Peterson". Ronnie was his favourite driver. I said it will be ok he has only broken his legs. My brother said "No, he died". It was a massive shock.
The other film was about Ferrari, the Rise to Immortality. It was basically based on Chris Nixon's Mon Ami mate and again was very sad at the end. Five top drivers died within a matter of about seven months, De Portago, Castelloti, Musso, Collins and Hawthorne. Some of the photography was incredible, it must have been digitally enhanced the colours were so vibrant and clear. Worth a squiz.
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Post by chrisb on Aug 28, 2020 9:35:12 GMT
great Rob, that sounded like a pretty awful experience my friend, like you i was shocked when the announcement was made, that was just such a bloody awful tragedy,
I will look out for the Ferrari film, the 1957/8 seasons were really a shocking time even for the brutal 50's but I will keep an eye out for it
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Post by René on Aug 28, 2020 9:40:15 GMT
The Ferrari film is very good Chris, you should check it out.
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Post by René on Aug 28, 2020 9:44:20 GMT
I didn't put Nelson in there because I am aware that he is unpopular here, but not with me  . History says Pablo Picasso wasn't always the nicest man but that doesn't mean he wasn't a great artist. Of course Nelson should be in there, he was a great driver! |
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Post by chrisb on Aug 28, 2020 9:47:09 GMT
piece of trivia, Picasso was a friend of Gary Cooper, Coop gave him a pistol and Picasso gave Coop a painting
I am going to check it out Rene, It was such a tragic but beautiful time,
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Post by charleselan on Aug 28, 2020 18:32:20 GMT
Nelson Piquet certainly was a great driver, like him or not. I don't think there was anything really nasty about him, he just had a wicked sense of humour that sometimes offended some people, and I don't think he really cared that much. DSJ rated him highly as did Gordon Murray and he knew Nelson better than anyone. I am minded to remember a few years ago when Piquet received his life time achievement award at the Autosport awards evening the genuine affection that was shown towards Nelson that night and it wasn't contrived.
For me the sight of Nelson in the dart shaped Brabham BT52, questionable fuel or not, was epic; he rung the neck of that device particularly in qualifying when it had absurd amounts of power, that was some driver at work. He drove for Ecclestone in those days for way less than the likes of Prost & Lauda were being paid and that is why he made the move to Williams along with Honda. Maybe if Ecclestone had not been such a "tight wad" and sold out to Pirelli tyres and paid Nelson what he was genuinely worth Brabham may have stayed a top level team for longer.
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Post by mikael on Aug 28, 2020 19:28:47 GMT
Just one comment, relevant or not: of the good drivers/riders I have known (I will not write "all", because it's not that many), a common trait was "a relatively short temper". Wouldn't you say that it's a necessary quality, in order to succeed in motorsport, to be easily "worked up" (relatively)?
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Post by Carl on Aug 28, 2020 21:38:52 GMT
Just one comment, relevant or not: of the good drivers/riders I have known (I will not write "all", because it's not that many), a common trait was "a relatively short temper". Wouldn't you say that it's a necessary quality, in order to succeed in motorsport, to be easily "worked up" (relatively)? This may be true for some and reflect a demanding nature they apply also to themselves, but others can be spoiled from the special treatment they receive at a young age. It should be in contracts that young superstars may be spanked occasionally  |
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Post by robmarsh on Aug 29, 2020 9:28:29 GMT
Nelson Piquet certainly was a great driver, like him or not. I don't think there was anything really nasty about him, he just had a wicked sense of humour that sometimes offended some people, and I don't think he really cared that much. DSJ rated him highly as did Gordon Murray and he knew Nelson better than anyone. I am minded to remember a few years ago when Piquet received his life time achievement award at the Autosport awards evening the genuine affection that was shown towards Nelson that night and it wasn't contrived. For me the sight of Nelson in the dart shaped Brabham BT52, questionable fuel or not, was epic; he rung the neck of that device particularly in qualifying when it had absurd amounts of power, that was some driver at work. He drove for Ecclestone in those days for way less than the likes of Prost & Lauda were being paid and that is why he made the move to Williams along with Honda. Maybe if Ecclestone had not been such a "tight wad" and sold out to Pirelli tyres and paid Nelson what he was genuinely worth Brabham may have stayed a top level team for longer. Niki Lauda also liked Nelson Piquet immensely, a fact I didn't realise until I read MH's book on Niki. I had the same thought about BCE and Nelson. He might have kept Gordon Murray as well and that could have been an extremely competitive team right up until the early 90s. I did enjoy NP's comment at the post race press conference when he won the 1991 Canadian GP. "Hello chaps, remember me" or words similar to that. |
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Post by charleselan on Aug 29, 2020 11:12:22 GMT
Nelson Piquet certainly was a great driver, like him or not. I don't think there was anything really nasty about him, he just had a wicked sense of humour that sometimes offended some people, and I don't think he really cared that much. DSJ rated him highly as did Gordon Murray and he knew Nelson better than anyone. I am minded to remember a few years ago when Piquet received his life time achievement award at the Autosport awards evening the genuine affection that was shown towards Nelson that night and it wasn't contrived. For me the sight of Nelson in the dart shaped Brabham BT52, questionable fuel or not, was epic; he rung the neck of that device particularly in qualifying when it had absurd amounts of power, that was some driver at work. He drove for Ecclestone in those days for way less than the likes of Prost & Lauda were being paid and that is why he made the move to Williams along with Honda. Maybe if Ecclestone had not been such a "tight wad" and sold out to Pirelli tyres and paid Nelson what he was genuinely worth Brabham may have stayed a top level team for longer. Niki Lauda also liked Nelson Piquet immensely, a fact I didn't realise until I read MH's book on Niki. I had the same thought about BCE and Nelson. He might have kept Gordon Murray as well and that could have been an extremely competitive team right up until the early 90s. I did enjoy NP's comment at the post race press conference when he won the 1991 Canadian GP. "Hello chaps, remember me" or words similar to that. Rob, I think I may have to purchase the Niki book by Maurice Hamilton, it does sound very good and I like biographies and such on drivers anyway. Niki was an amazing guy, no bull with him at all, straight talking and a great driver. Of course he liked Nelson they got on very well when at Brabham together during Nelson's first full year in F1, and Piquet learn a hell of a lot from Niki which I believe he has acknowledged. If Niki liked him immensely that really does mean something as Niki sure as hell wouldn't have tolerated an idiot or BS merchant, I think also that their own sense off humour would have matched up as well. Interesting that you highlight Nelson's comments after the 1991 Canadian GP. His stock had gone down after those two years at Lotus, although he did actually drive very well in the second term there in the under powered Judd powered car. He then signed a pay on results basis for Benetton in 1991 and surprised a lot of people, none more so than Briatore. JC |
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Post by René on Aug 29, 2020 11:15:48 GMT
We've all got our personal preferences who we like and who not. But in reality we only know the people in Formula One very superficial. I believe we all like Niki Lauda and Sebastian Vettel as persons but both are/were very close to Bernie. What does that say about Ecclestone? The same goes for Nelson who probably is a very nice guy when you actually get to know him.
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Post by charleselan on Aug 29, 2020 11:18:25 GMT
Just one comment, relevant or not: of the good drivers/riders I have known (I will not write "all", because it's not that many), a common trait was "a relatively short temper". Wouldn't you say that it's a necessary quality, in order to succeed in motorsport, to be easily "worked up" (relatively)? That is an interesting comment Mikael, and I am sure that those guys did have a short fuse. However Jackie Stewart often remarked that it was essential to remove all emotion from his being before and during a race and that as what helped him be so quick on the first lap of a Grand Prix. Maybe you are referring to these guys as people and how they were out of the car or on the motorcycle; sure enough most of the top guys did not suffer fools gladly and if things were not going well they would let rip. I have seen pictures of Jim Clark looking as black as thunder when things were not going smoothly; more so in his later years I would say. Also I would say that Graham Hill was renown for having a short temper and wasn't afraid to let people know that he was unimpressed. |
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Post by Carl on Aug 29, 2020 16:40:51 GMT
We've all got our personal preferences who we like and who not. But in reality we only know the people in Formula One very superficial. I believe we all like Niki Lauda and Sebastian Vettel as persons but both are/were very close to Bernie. What does that say about Ecclestone? The same goes for Nelson who probably is a very nice guy when you actually get to know him. Over time most reveal themselves in small but consistent ways. Niki Lauda was a remarkable oddball, logical to a fault and antisocial, but he and I could have been friends because I admire blunt honesty.
Some of the greatest have been the greatest jerks, eagerly embracing false praise from parasites they collect in an entourage while the very best often have no entourage at all. I have great admiration for Jackie Stewart, but will never understand why he once led a parade of celebrities to the grid in Monaco as though in celebration of his own. For goodness sake, Elizabeth Taylor by then was fat and had big hair!
Of the handful I've encountered personally (however briefly), Bruce McLaren, Dan Gurney, John Morton (of Cobra and SCCA fame) and Emerson Fittipaldi were down to earth and genuine, greatness without a trace of conceit.
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Post by charleselan on Aug 29, 2020 18:35:12 GMT
We've all got our personal preferences who we like and who not. But in reality we only know the people in Formula One very superficial. I believe we all like Niki Lauda and Sebastian Vettel as persons but both are/were very close to Bernie. What does that say about Ecclestone? The same goes for Nelson who probably is a very nice guy when you actually get to know him. Over time most reveal themselves in small but consistent ways. Niki Lauda was a remarkable oddball, logical to a fault and antisocial, but he and I could have been friends because I admire blunt honesty.
Some of the greatest have been the greatest jerks, eagerly embracing false praise from parasites they collect in an entourage while the very best often have no entourage at all. I have great admiration for Jackie Stewart, but will never understand why he once led a parade of celebrities to the grid in Monaco as though in celebration of his own. For goodness sake, Elizabeth Taylor by then was fat and had big hair!
Of the handful I've encountered personally (however briefly), Bruce McLaren, Dan Gurney, John Morton (of Cobra and SCCA fame) and Emerson Fittipaldi were down to earth and genuine, greatness without a trace of conceit.
Excellent comment Carl, and very true. I admire the ability of JYS as a driver and many of the observations that he has made over the years, however his desire to embrace celebrity was not to my taste. His rapturous obsession with the British monarchy is something else that I do not share, but I suppose it was as a result of it being the thing in his period at the top (1960/70's). I could never see Jim Clark indulging in any of that nonsense as he was far more down to earth, even if from somewhat privileged farming stock. The four guys you mention above were great drivers and men and everyone of them would have gladly spared anyone the time with a fan or enthusiast. I often think that Emerson gets a little overlooked today as a great, but he was mighty impressive both at his peak before making the disastrous decision to join his brothers team, and then when he made that amazing comeback in the USA. The little piece with Emerson and Ronnie's daughter Nina in the recent film about Ronnie was one of the most touching moments I have ever seen. |
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