|
|
Post by chrisb on Apr 19, 2020 7:33:42 GMT
well said John, we all have our good points and lesser ones, Stirling, was in the public eye and having read his devoted secretary's book he was a hard taskmaster, as was his Father, it was interesting to note that the three leading Brits of the 50's each had Father's with very strong personalities, maybe that is something Stirling shared with Lewis and they could resonate? we do agree to disagree John with regards to Nelson, as we have commentated before - but as ever I am always intrigued as to why we warm to some and not to others, I warmed to Ascari, Pete, Fangio but not to Mike, Stirling or Jack, definitely not to Nelson or his son, not Nigel, but to Elio and Niki - I will sit down one day and try and analyse these favourites as to what they say about ourselves,
have ordered the Stirling book so await with eagerness - Chris I could have written the words in bold myself regarding people I warmed to and to ones I did not. I never warmed to Prost, Brabham or Rindt but did to JYS and Gilles. Like you Chris I had a problem liking my brother's favourites. Especially as at the beginning of each season we had to pick a team of six drivers and then we would compete against each other. That went on for close on 20 years until Senna died. The competition to get the newest and best driver got pretty intense. I remember phoning my brother to say hello and his first words were "I've got Johannson". I had to swap Prost with him to ensure I had a Ferrari driver for the season. Max Verstappen is another one I haven't really warmed to but do to Leclerc. Charles and I have the same views on LH. Initially I was a supporter but found certain actions and statements seemed contrived and insincere so went off him. In the last few years he seems to have got his public and private personnas in sync and so comes across as more sincere and complete. Maturity is one reason but I just think he and has dad probably tied too hard in the beginning to play the F1 game. It must have been extremely difficult because he was probably under far more scrutiny than most. It shouldn't be that way but it probably was. Rob, definitely a man after my own thoughts, except it was my brother who was the Ferrari fan, and this lasted until he married and his wife wanted distance from the rest of his family, I always tried to like Prost, I liked his driving style and his ethics once in the car, but as a person until he retired I was never that warm towards him, whereas Senna was nearly the opposite, his personality was special, as was his feelings towards others outside of the cockpit, whereas if he disappeared into the distance I admired his driving [aka Portugal 1985] but his attitude and ruthlessness in the cockpit I couldn't cope with or even fathom, and of course it introduced decades of ruthlessness and petulance, Gilles and Jody were probably the only time I wanted the Ferrari's to do well, although liked Alboreto and had hoped he had done better and I think would have been a worthy champion, ending the terrible Italian drought Lewis is starting to make sense to me, I like what he is saying and as you say Rob, maturing, and I am warming to him, I also like Seb the human being and warmed to him, but not a great fan of his driving, this month's MS carries lunch with Christian and his comments about Seb's 1st WDC makes you think, I have also warmed to Charles, to Norris, to some of the others, but I cannot warm to Max, I didn't too his Father and still think about how he took Montoya out once, but maybe time will change that which has made me think, which team principals did I like or didn't- another post beckons methinks |
|
|
|
Post by René on Apr 19, 2020 11:16:17 GMT
Chris I could have written the words in bold myself regarding people I warmed to and to ones I did not. I never warmed to Prost, Brabham or Rindt but did to JYS and Gilles. Like you Chris I had a problem liking my brother's favourites. Especially as at the beginning of each season we had to pick a team of six drivers and then we would compete against each other. That went on for close on 20 years until Senna died. The competition to get the newest and best driver got pretty intense. I remember phoning my brother to say hello and his first words were "I've got Johannson". I had to swap Prost with him to ensure I had a Ferrari driver for the season. Max Verstappen is another one I haven't really warmed to but do to Leclerc. Charles and I have the same views on LH. Initially I was a supporter but found certain actions and statements seemed contrived and insincere so went off him. In the last few years he seems to have got his public and private personnas in sync and so comes across as more sincere and complete. Maturity is one reason but I just think he and has dad probably tied too hard in the beginning to play the F1 game. It must have been extremely difficult because he was probably under far more scrutiny than most. It shouldn't be that way but it probably was. Rob, definitely a man after my own thoughts, except it was my brother who was the Ferrari fan, and this lasted until he married and his wife wanted distance from the rest of his family, I always tried to like Prost, I liked his driving style and his ethics once in the car, but as a person until he retired I was never that warm towards him, whereas Senna was nearly the opposite, his personality was special, as was his feelings towards others outside of the cockpit, whereas if he disappeared into the distance I admired his driving [aka Portugal 1985] but his attitude and ruthlessness in the cockpit I couldn't cope with or even fathom, and of course it introduced decades of ruthlessness and petulance, Gilles and Jody were probably the only time I wanted the Ferrari's to do well, although liked Alboreto and had hoped he had done better and I think would have been a worthy champion, ending the terrible Italian drought Lewis is starting to make sense to me, I like what he is saying and as you say Rob, maturing, and I am warming to him, I also like Seb the human being and warmed to him, but not a great fan of his driving, this month's MS carries lunch with Christian and his comments about Seb's 1st WDC makes you think, I have also warmed to Charles, to Norris, to some of the others, but I cannot warm to Max, I didn't too his Father and still think about how he took Montoya out once, but maybe time will change that which has made me think, which team principals did I like or didn't- another post beckons methinks I wasn't a Prost fan but my father was so I was happy for my dad if he did well. 1990 brought that nicely together.  I also liked Alboreto. Michele was a real decent guy and a very good driver. He would have been a worthy 1985 champion had Ferrari not faltered, again, towards the end. I will never be a Verstappen fan. Wasn't of Jos and am not of Max. I'm in awe of Max's driving talent and he's actually quite okay in interviews but he's just not my kind of guy. And I don't like his attitude towards blocking and aggressive driving. I watched an interview not long ago where they showed him the 1990 Japanese GP start with Senna ramming Prost and he said that was great. That was real racing, how it should be, how it was in the 'old days'! That is what he believes. His dad was always a bully. A good driver but very blunt and not really clever as a person. Also spent some time behind bars for being violent to his (former) wife and others. Yes, Seb is funny and a very clever guy and I also really like Charles. |
|
|
|
Post by charleselan on Apr 20, 2020 20:21:38 GMT
Is that what Max said René? I think someone should take him quietly aside and explain to him what is acceptable and what isn't. I am still outraged at his antics during the Belgian GP a few years back when he could have killed Kimi and several tens of spectators; even more so by the inaction of the officials who had the chance to bring him too heal. Just like Ayrton the opportunity was missed by appalling stewarding.
I have not been a fan of Max from the outset, and his father is a complete oaf who seriously lacked the application of the grey matter when a racer himself. I still believe that Max made a huge error in judgement with Charles in Austria last year, and one that will come back to haunt him time and time again. He can shrug it off as he did at Silverstone later in the season, but he knows his card is marked.
On a different front I am musing as to whether Ferrari will benefit from the inaction of current times, and are they able to utilise the time in fixing what appeared to be a problematic 2020 car?
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisb on Apr 20, 2020 21:01:09 GMT
Rene, that is not good, the trouble is with people such as these they can do no wrong in their view, Ayrton justified everything he did good or bad, until he finally admitted he was in the wrong but still maintained he was 'forced' into it and DC always speaks of Michael saying he is never wrong - there is something about this concrete defence they put around themselves and it diminishes them, Black Jack would wind up his competitors by tutting and shaking his head at their cars or tyres but that was fun and a tease something I find quite amusing, but this outrageous behaviour and attitude is something I just can't comprehend
I didn't know that about Jos, not good - Max has a tremendous talent as did Michael but
so are the F1 teams all locked down - working from home or sneaking into the factory and developing the cars?
|
|
|
|
Post by René on Apr 21, 2020 13:04:51 GMT
Is that what Max said René? I think someone should take him quietly aside and explain to him what is acceptable and what isn't. I am still outraged at his antics during the Belgian GP a few years back when he could have killed Kimi and several tens of spectators; even more so by the inaction of the officials who had the chance to bring him too heal. Just like Ayrton the opportunity was missed by appalling stewarding. I have not been a fan of Max from the outset, and his father is a complete oaf who seriously lacked the application of the grey matter when a racer himself. I still believe that Max made a huge error in judgement with Charles in Austria last year, and one that will come back to haunt him time and time again. He can shrug it off as he did at Silverstone later in the season, but he knows his card is marked. On a different front I am musing as to whether Ferrari will benefit from the inaction of current times, and are they able to utilise the time in fixing what appeared to be a problematic 2020 car? I am afraid he did say that JC. Here's the interview. It's in Dutch but I'll give a translation (you'll have to trust me on this  ). I've made the video start at exactly this part. Interviewer Rob Kamphues: We talked about the Senna documentary and nowadays you are being compared to Ayrton Senna by some, even in Brazil. Great but Senna did some stuff that was not really okay like when he crashed into Prost in Japan.
Max Verstappen: Yeah, that was a great action, not?
RK: Nooo, really?
MV: Why not?
RK: No, that is not okay! You cannot say that.
MV: I thought it was a good action. Yeah really, I thought it was super how he did that.
RK: You don’t mean when they both drove for McLaren?
MV: No no, the year after. He was on the dirty side, Senna. And he wanted it to be reversed (ok, Max knows his history..).
RK: It was Balestre who created this situation.
MV: Yeah exactly so then you know what happens. … So I understand it completely.
It’s so long ago but back then this was absolutely fine.
RK: So comparing you to Senna is not that strange?
MV: No, I don’t want to be compared to anyone…
etc. Well, what can you say? I think it just shows how much of an impact Senna's actions had, back then and still decades later. Had it been Pierluigi Martini (sorry Pierluigi) than we would probably have all forgotten about it but it was Ayrton Senna. One of the best racing drivers the sport has ever seen and certainly one of the most charismatic personalities. He should have been more aware of his power and influence, also on younger drivers. And like you say JC, the race stewards should have acted way more firmly to end this deliberate dangerous driving. Then Michael Schumacher thought it was okay and now Max thinks it's okay. It's such a shame because all three were/are phenomenally talented.
Or are we getting old?
Scanning over the comments below this video on Youtube, there is no comment about this subject, nada.
|
|
|
|
Post by charleselan on Apr 21, 2020 13:43:30 GMT
Is that what Max said René? I think someone should take him quietly aside and explain to him what is acceptable and what isn't. I am still outraged at his antics during the Belgian GP a few years back when he could have killed Kimi and several tens of spectators; even more so by the inaction of the officials who had the chance to bring him too heal. Just like Ayrton the opportunity was missed by appalling stewarding. I have not been a fan of Max from the outset, and his father is a complete oaf who seriously lacked the application of the grey matter when a racer himself. I still believe that Max made a huge error in judgement with Charles in Austria last year, and one that will come back to haunt him time and time again. He can shrug it off as he did at Silverstone later in the season, but he knows his card is marked. On a different front I am musing as to whether Ferrari will benefit from the inaction of current times, and are they able to utilise the time in fixing what appeared to be a problematic 2020 car? I am afraid he did say that JC. Here's the interview. It's in Dutch but I'll give a translation (you'll have to trust me on this ). I've made the video start at exactly this part. Interviewer Rob Kamphues: We talked about the Senna documentary and nowadays you are being compared to Ayrton Senna by some, even in Brazil. Great but Senna did some stuff that was not really okay like when he crashed into Prost in Japan.
Max Verstappen: Yeah, that was a great action, not?
RK: Nooo, really?
MV: Why not?
RK: No, that is not okay! You cannot say that.
MV: I thought it was a good action. Yeah really, I thought it was super how he did that.
RK: You don’t mean when they both drove for McLaren?
MV: No no, the year after. He was on the dirty side, Senna. And he wanted it to be reversed (ok, Max knows his history..).
RK: It was Balestre who created this situation.
MV: Yeah exactly so then you know what happens. … So I understand it completely.
It’s so long ago but back then this was absolutely fine.
RK: So comparing you to Senna is not that strange?
MV: No, I don’t want to be compared to anyone…
etc. Well, what can you say? I think it just shows how much of an impact Senna's actions had, back then and still decades later. Had it been Pierluigi Martini (sorry Pierluigi) than we would probably have all forgotten about it but it was Ayrton Senna. One of the best racing drivers the sport has ever seen and certainly one of the most charismatic personalities. He should have been more aware of his power and influence, also on younger drivers. And like you say JC, the race stewards should have acted way more firmly to end this deliberate dangerous driving. Then Michael Schumacher thought it was okay and now Max thinks it's okay. It's such a shame because all three were/are phenomenally talented.
Or are we getting old?
Scanning over the comments below this video on Youtube, there is no comment about this subject, nada.
Many thanks for going to the trouble René, I didn't doubt you for one minute it was an expression of shear exasperation on my part. You're absolutely correct in that those actions of Ayrton Senna have had a profound affect on the mind set of some competitors who have followed; detrimentally so. You can tell from the film I posted a while back featuring an interview with Mika Hakkinen that he did not hold with those ideas, and it appeared that he told Michael Schumacher as much after that infamous Spa incident. |
|
|
|
Post by chrisb on Apr 21, 2020 18:51:19 GMT
Rene, thank you and naturally I trust thee, but that is horrific, ok Balestre caused the problem but Senna was quick enough not to have resorted to such a horrible act, it was a real betrayal of all that is important, although not the 1st to have done it - I think Farina was, pre-war and killed the driver who wouldn't let him pass but so many and so much could have been prevented had the stewards the balls to have done something, but then I ask myself what? what should they have done? but as you say JC it led to some awful driving, what Michael did at Spa was a disgrace and should have been disqualified for a year for that,
I have never really understand why commentators compliment drivers for blocking an overtake - anyone can block, but we revert to our old gripes of synthetic motor sport, DRS, arghh ughhh- Peter Windsor whose web page i would recommend says it far more eloquently than I could ever hope to achieve, and provides a better route, which is around braking distances
I am trying to see where Max is coming from on this, saying that Senna's actions were justified by the manipulation of the starting grid, but sorry that sense of injustice would drive me to beat the opposition, not beat them up
|
|
|
|
Post by charleselan on Apr 27, 2020 17:22:08 GMT
Your last para is spot on Chris, however Ayrton had nothing to loose by doing what he did. Taking both himself and Prost out gave him his championship. Maybe he thought that by contriving the accident at the first corner was a better gamble than going head to head in the race which Alain may well have won.
Ayrton went down in my estimation that day by a large amount, even more so after his bitter remarks to JYS after the race when Jackie challenged him about the matter.
Balestre was a moron of the highest order and his actions provoked Ayrton, but he should not have resorted to such tactics. Also Prost did not display the same sort of attitude that Stirling Moss would have done in such circumstances either, as he could have stated that the changing of the grid positions were not correct, but he did not.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisb on Apr 28, 2020 5:24:27 GMT
totally JC,
if there was an injustice Jimmy, Stirling and so many other greats would have pushed themselves to another limit and corrected the wrong the right way, and that has forever sallied my respect for Ayrton and as you say Alain, that felt contrived - i don't know if it was but I would have been really annoyed by that decision but
Balestre, MM and BCE, what a collection! why they weren't dumped into on a small island to fight over control over that is beyond me, but in some respects his fight against MM and BCE conducted terribly was in hindsight showed the right idea just the wrong man
|
|
|
|
Post by René on Apr 28, 2020 16:33:18 GMT
Also Prost did not display the same sort of attitude that Stirling Moss would have done in such circumstances either, as he could have stated that the changing of the grid positions were not correct, but he did not. That is true. Had Alain been a bit more like Stirling then it would probably have raised his prestige even more than another world title. But those times were already long gone. |
|
|
|
Post by robmarsh on Apr 29, 2020 9:43:24 GMT
Sadly true Rene
|
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Apr 29, 2020 16:20:03 GMT
The concept that honor exists among thieves was first stated by the ancient Roman politician Cicero and is still true today. Amazingly, professional criminals have a standard of honorable behavior, at least among themselves, several in motorsport do not.
More than anyone else, I blame the poison dwarf ecclestone, motorsport's Richard lll, for rewarding ruthlessness on a par with his own personal perversion of honor. Instead of clear and immediate repercussions, ecclestone made clear his admiration for the actions of Senna at Suzuka and Schumacher at Adelaide.
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisb on May 2, 2020 8:59:58 GMT
have just finished the Stirling book, my cars my career, what a fabulous book, I like this style of book, and would like to read a similar style for many other drivers who also drove a great many different cars, Fangio, Jimmy, Dan, - amongst so many others, like Niki, Jo and JYS for instance
but Stirling, my admiration and respect has increased ten fold, he really was special, and he makes some very interesting observations of other drivers, from Farina, Ascari etc and I understand he also made comments about Ayrton, Michael and Lewis, that would be interesting reading, such is the respect I hold Stirling's opinion in
|
|
|
|
Post by René on May 2, 2020 11:33:28 GMT
Yep, I also have the Stirling book that JC recommended. It is really good, even if I haven't really read it yet. But looking at the pictures and reading small sections here and there is already a joy. Thanks for the tip!
|
|
|
|
Post by charleselan on May 2, 2020 12:33:18 GMT
Really pleased that you both have the book and it has proven to be as good as I predicted Chris & René. One of the best driver biographies I have come across, and pretty lavish in content as well.
|
|
). I've made the video start at exactly this part.
