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Post by Carl on Apr 15, 2020 21:49:07 GMT
I would suggest that he was a man of his time Carl, and that it was also more a case of self assuredness. He was an absolute gentleman according to those who knew him or met him. I have a feeling that he was a bit like Lewis Hamilton in some respects as they shared many similarities. I did not take to Lewis, and still have reservations about some of his attitudes, but in recent times have warmed to him far more as a person. His openness regarding the folly of trying to run the Australian GP was praiseworthy and mature, as are his concerns about animals and their welfare as are his feelings about the world today. Stirling exuded self confidence but was also reverential towards Fangio, not a similarity shared by Lewis with regard to Alonso. Mind you Alonso is no Fangio, no matter what he may think, or his doting members of the UK motoring press may think. John Charles, Your description is far better than mine. I wrote in haste and used the wrong words, ones that better define some who drove decades later. Moss drove with honor and consideration for fair play, honorable traits easily warped by the self-adoration of conceit. Damn, another mea culpa! 
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Post by charleselan on Apr 15, 2020 22:31:16 GMT
I would suggest that he was a man of his time Carl, and that it was also more a case of self assuredness. He was an absolute gentleman according to those who knew him or met him. I have a feeling that he was a bit like Lewis Hamilton in some respects as they shared many similarities. I did not take to Lewis, and still have reservations about some of his attitudes, but in recent times have warmed to him far more as a person. His openness regarding the folly of trying to run the Australian GP was praiseworthy and mature, as are his concerns about animals and their welfare as are his feelings about the world today. Stirling exuded self confidence but was also reverential towards Fangio, not a similarity shared by Lewis with regard to Alonso. Mind you Alonso is no Fangio, no matter what he may think, or his doting members of the UK motoring press may think. John Charles, Your description is far better than mine. I wrote in haste and used the wrong words, ones that better define some who drove decades later. Moss drove with honor and consideration for fair play, honorable traits easily warped by conceit's adoration of self. Damn, another mea culpa!
I think that you wrote as you feel about the subject in the moment Carl, and no doubt influenced by the thoughts also expressed by others. No one is right or wrong, as it is a matter of our own personal feelings or intuition. It has been said that although a gentleman Stirling could be very difficult, especially to work for. That fact reinforced by some extracts that i have read from his long time secretary. To me you either warm to a personality or one doesn't, I am a bit of a Maverick here as I liked Nelson Piquet and most of you others do not. As a little lad growing up I am reminded by all of the books on my book shelf that I too must have been a very big fan of Stirling Moss, many of which were written by him or ghosted for him. Time however sometimes diminishes ones memory regarding such things and it is only when looking back long and hard in refection as we have done with Stirling Moss that the true picture is restored; the same applied to my following of Ayrton Senna faults and all. |
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Post by Carl on Apr 15, 2020 23:07:46 GMT
John Charles, Your description is far better than mine. I wrote in haste and used the wrong words, ones that better define some who drove decades later. Moss drove with honor and consideration for fair play, honorable traits easily warped by conceit's adoration of self. Damn, another mea culpa!
I think that you wrote as you feel about the subject in the moment Carl, and no doubt influenced by the thoughts also expressed by others. No one is right or wrong, as it is a matter of our own personal feelings or intuition. It has been said that although a gentleman Stirling could be very difficult, especially to work for. That fact reinforced by some extracts that i have read from his long time secretary. To me you either warm to a personality or one doesn't, I am a bit of a Maverick here as I liked Nelson Piquet and most of you others do not. As a little lad growing up I am reminded by all of the books on my book shelf that I too must have been a very big fan of Stirling Moss, many of which were written by him or ghosted for him. Time however sometimes diminishes ones memory regarding such things and it is only when looking back long and hard in refection as we have done with Stirling Moss that the true picture is restored; the same applied to my following of Ayrton Senna faults and all. Well said indeed, as demonstrated by the friendships that often develop between ancient enemies grown old. However, I was wrong by way of haste making waste and mistaking conceit for a magnified self-assurance, but they are not the same. Stirling Moss was very self-assured and at times demanding, but always a gentleman. On the other hand, Nelson Piquet's greatest accomplishment was his off-track tormenting of Nigel Mansell and Ayrton Senna.  |
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Post by chrisb on Apr 16, 2020 7:24:53 GMT
well said John, we all have our good points and lesser ones, Stirling, was in the public eye and having read his devoted secretary's book he was a hard taskmaster, as was his Father, it was interesting to note that the three leading Brits of the 50's each had Father's with very strong personalities, maybe that is something Stirling shared with Lewis and they could resonate?
we do agree to disagree John with regards to Nelson, as we have commentated before - but as ever I am always intrigued as to why we warm to some and not to others, I warmed to Ascari, Pete, Fangio but not to Mike, Stirling or Jack, definitely not to Nelson or his son, not Nigel, but to Elio and Niki - I will sit down one day and try and analyse these favourites as to what they say about ourselves,
have ordered the Stirling book so await with eagerness -
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Post by charleselan on Apr 16, 2020 11:44:06 GMT
Returning to an earlier post that i made about the Lotus 18/21 cars as featured in Mikael's post about the 1961 F1 race at Roskilde, it sort of piqued my interest. Other than reading what DSJ wrote about the cars in MS I had no real further knowledge about these machines, other than my own attempt at trying to figure out what they were.
After a bit of research online (how i would have appreciated this when I published our little magazine) I found a circa 2003 Autosport Forum that was discussing these very cars. Some of the guys were very knowledgable about the cars and were heavily into chassis numbers etc, something i have never been overly interested in to be truthful. However some might have known about the cars and how they were modified and built etc but lacked actual race history. Some guys actually intimating that Team Lotus actually ran them, which they assuredly did not except for on one occasion when at the 1961 Italian GP Innes Ireland swapped cars with Stirling.
The cars bodywork was apparently made by the UDT Laystall team and the main modifications to the chassis was a modification the the rear upright suspension mounting and both front and rear bulkheads were rounded to accommodate the more svelte bodywork. According to those in the discussion the first versions were original Lotus 18 chassis that were modified, the design work done by Alf Francis and Tony Robinson. After that the later versions were apparently built from scratch by Reg Parnell, which is something i would like verified for surely if that was the case they were no longer Lotus cars, but semi clones if such a thing exists. It also surprises me that Parnell would have had the resources to build complete cars from scratch as well.
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Post by Carl on Apr 16, 2020 17:10:29 GMT
well said John, we all have our good points and lesser ones, Stirling, was in the public eye and having read his devoted secretary's book he was a hard taskmaster, as was his Father, it was interesting to note that the three leading Brits of the 50's each had Father's with very strong personalities, maybe that is something Stirling shared with Lewis and they could resonate? we do agree to disagree John with regards to Nelson, as we have commentated before - but as ever I am always intrigued as to why we warm to some and not to others, I warmed to Ascari, Pete, Fangio but not to Mike, Stirling or Jack, definitely not to Nelson or his son, not Nigel, but to Elio and Niki - I will sit down one day and try and analyse these favourites as to what they say about ourselves, have ordered the Stirling book so await with eagerness - Chris, Our favorites coincide with one exception because I've always liked Jack Brabham. I can overlook his use of small stones to discourage drivers ignoring social distancing because he was otherwise so typical of the do it yourself and do it right, make it work hardscrabble school of self-taught engineering typical among Aussies and Kiwis.
At the Formula 5000 race at Riverside in 1976, I was walking around the garage and paddock area and noticed Brabham with one or two associates doing the same, apparently unrecognized, which prompted me to approach with a smile and a "Welcome". He returned my smile as we shook hands and my "welcome" was enough said.
My favorite story about him involved a younger driver who was struggling to master a particular track and asked Brabham how to better his time. The answer was brilliant, demanding further thought by the young driver, Australian reticence yet extraordinarily wise at the same time. "More throttle, less brake". A perfect guide to a better lap time when given enough thought. Socrates could not have answered better.
Cheers, Carl
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Post by charleselan on Apr 16, 2020 17:54:43 GMT
well said John, we all have our good points and lesser ones, Stirling, was in the public eye and having read his devoted secretary's book he was a hard taskmaster, as was his Father, it was interesting to note that the three leading Brits of the 50's each had Father's with very strong personalities, maybe that is something Stirling shared with Lewis and they could resonate? we do agree to disagree John with regards to Nelson, as we have commentated before - but as ever I am always intrigued as to why we warm to some and not to others, I warmed to Ascari, Pete, Fangio but not to Mike, Stirling or Jack, definitely not to Nelson or his son, not Nigel, but to Elio and Niki - I will sit down one day and try and analyse these favourites as to what they say about ourselves, have ordered the Stirling book so await with eagerness - Chris, Our favorites coincide with one exception because I've always liked Jack Brabham. I can overlook his use of small stones to discourage drivers ignoring social distancing because he was otherwise so typical of the do it yourself and do it right, make it work hardscrabble school of self-taught engineering emblematic of many Aussies and Kiwis.
I was at the Formula 5000 race at Riverside in 1976, walking around the garage and paddock area, and noticed him doing the same with one or two associates, apparently unrecognized by anyone, which prompted me to approach with a smile and say "Welcome". He returned my smile as we shook hands and that was enough said.
My favorite story about him involved a younger driver who was struggling to master a particular track and asked Brabham how to better his time. The answer was brilliant, demanding further thought by the young driver, Australian reticence yet extraordinarily wise at the same time. "More throttle, less brake". A perfect guide to a better lap time when given enough thought. Socrates could not have answered better.
Cheers, Carl
Carl, A driver does not win three world titles without being special. Jack may have thrown up all sorts of crap as Stirling mentioned but in all probability it wasn't done out of malevolence but as a result of his driving background on the dirt tracks in Australia. That first paragraph of yours is just priceless, "social distancing" is so on point . Brilliant. JC |
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Post by chrisb on Apr 17, 2020 8:00:16 GMT
JC, not sure I totally agree - I have no desire to take any of Jack's achievements away from him, especially as he had driven so well I thought in 66/67 and 70 or even belittle him, winning 3 wdc's is pretty special and i would agree, and to have survived to a ripe old age says even more, one of my reasons for not taking to Jack is pure prejudice, he was my brother's favourite - need I say more?
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Post by charleselan on Apr 17, 2020 12:24:28 GMT
Ah! Sibling rivalry Chris . |
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Post by robmarsh on Apr 18, 2020 7:46:44 GMT
well said John, we all have our good points and lesser ones, Stirling, was in the public eye and having read his devoted secretary's book he was a hard taskmaster, as was his Father, it was interesting to note that the three leading Brits of the 50's each had Father's with very strong personalities, maybe that is something Stirling shared with Lewis and they could resonate? we do agree to disagree John with regards to Nelson, as we have commentated before - but as ever I am always intrigued as to why we warm to some and not to others, I warmed to Ascari, Pete, Fangio but not to Mike, Stirling or Jack, definitely not to Nelson or his son, not Nigel, but to Elio and Niki - I will sit down one day and try and analyse these favourites as to what they say about ourselves,
have ordered the Stirling book so await with eagerness - Chris I could have written the words in bold myself regarding people I warmed to and to ones I did not. I never warmed to Prost, Brabham or Rindt but did to JYS and Gilles. Like you Chris I had a problem liking my brother's favourites. Especially as at the beginning of each season we had to pick a team of six drivers and then we would compete against each other. That went on for close on 20 years until Senna died. The competition to get the newest and best driver got pretty intense. I remember phoning my brother to say hello and his first words were "I've got Johannson". I had to swap Prost with him to ensure I had a Ferrari driver for the season. Max Verstappen is another one I haven't really warmed to but do to Leclerc. Charles and I have the same views on LH. Initially I was a supporter but found certain actions and statements seemed contrived and insincere so went off him. In the last few years he seems to have got his public and private personnas in sync and so comes across as more sincere and complete. Maturity is one reason but I just think he and has dad probably tied too hard in the beginning to play the F1 game. It must have been extremely difficult because he was probably under far more scrutiny than most. It shouldn't be that way but it probably was. |
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Post by mikael on Apr 18, 2020 9:15:58 GMT
Again related to the mentioned Danish "Grand Prix" on (the no longer existing) Roskilde Ring in August 1961, I came across a promotion poster for that event (the one shown to the right - the one to the left is for another event).
In 1961, Jack Brabham was the reigning World Champion; but it's interesting to note that Stirling Moss apparently was the main draw, and was listed first - also in enlarged letters.
For the Danish Championships Finals later that year (Oct. 1st), Stirling Moss graced the front cover of the program.
Yet another photo from the August 1961 event - in colour.
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Post by René on Apr 18, 2020 10:16:04 GMT
well said John, we all have our good points and lesser ones, Stirling, was in the public eye and having read his devoted secretary's book he was a hard taskmaster, as was his Father, it was interesting to note that the three leading Brits of the 50's each had Father's with very strong personalities, maybe that is something Stirling shared with Lewis and they could resonate? we do agree to disagree John with regards to Nelson, as we have commentated before - but as ever I am always intrigued as to why we warm to some and not to others, I warmed to Ascari, Pete, Fangio but not to Mike, Stirling or Jack, definitely not to Nelson or his son, not Nigel, but to Elio and Niki - I will sit down one day and try and analyse these favourites as to what they say about ourselves,
have ordered the Stirling book so await with eagerness - Chris I could have written the words in bold myself regarding people I warmed to and to ones I did not. I never warmed to Prost, Brabham or Rindt but did to JYS and Gilles. Like you Chris I had a problem liking my brother's favourites. Especially as at the beginning of each season we had to pick a team of six drivers and then we would compete against each other. That went on for close on 20 years until Senna died. The competition to get the newest and best driver got pretty intense. I remember phoning my brother to say hello and his first words were "I've got Johannson". I had to swap Prost with him to ensure I had a Ferrari driver for the season. Max Verstappen is another one I haven't really warmed to but do to Leclerc. Charles and I have the same views on LH. Initially I was a supporter but found certain actions and statements seemed contrived and insincere so went off him. In the last few years he seems to have got his public and private personnas in sync and so comes across as more sincere and complete. Maturity is one reason but I just think he and has dad probably tied too hard in the beginning to play the F1 game. It must have been extremely difficult because he was probably under far more scrutiny than most. It shouldn't be that way but it probably was. Good post Rob with which I wholeheartedly agree. If I may, I would only change your last sentence from "It shouldn't be that way but it probably was." to "It shouldn't be that way but it unfortunately is." A sad fact of life. |
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Post by René on Apr 18, 2020 10:18:21 GMT
Again related to the mentioned Danish "Grand Prix" on (the no longer existing) Roskilde Ring in August 1961, I came across a promotion poster for that event (the one shown to the right - the one to the left is for another event). I love those old posters and the graphic design of that era, cool. |
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Post by Carl on Apr 18, 2020 16:34:11 GMT
Again related to the mentioned Danish "Grand Prix" on (the no longer existing) Roskilde Ring in August 1961, I came across a promotion poster for that event (the one shown to the right - the one to the left is for another event). I love those old posters and the graphic design of that era, cool. Mikael, I agree with our resident graphic design expert. Thanks for the vintage posters, wonderful doorways into the past, especially ones like these, so well designed that we can close our eyes and (almost) be there. They enticed attendance six decades ago and tempt us today with the same flair.
-Carl
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Post by charleselan on Apr 18, 2020 19:37:40 GMT
I suppose when we are young we tend to have our favourites and not so favourite sporting stars, or music for that matter, or anything else that may be interested in.
Personally I have never really disliked any racing driver in all the years i have followed the sport. However that being said I was no fan of Michael Schumacher, no matter what make of vehicle he might have driven. His ethics to my way of thinking were unacceptable; many others do not seem to care and idolised him which was their choice.
I didn't really take to Alain Prost either for some reason and that wasn't to do with ethics, he just failed to light the fire no matter how good he was. Those journalists who likened Alain to Jim Clark made matters worse, as he was no Jim Clark as he was far too political and not that special in the rain.
Always preferred Jochen Rindt to JYS in the later years after Jim was killed; just plain liked Jochen's style and speed particularly when he was in F2 and dominated with a decent car. Very much liked JYS in his early and later years, a phenomenal great and no matter what some might say he had the greatest debut season in F1 bar none. Just think from a club racer to F3 and then straight into F1 and win, plus many times second only to Jim, awesome.
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