|
|
Post by chrisb on Feb 18, 2019 21:19:59 GMT
Rene, I admire your passion for Ferrari, I don't necessarily share your sentiments but it would good for F1 if someone other than Mercedes won this year and I hope your passion is rewarded, so to speak,
with regards to the beauty of an F1 car, well the above are most certainly not a thing of beauty - even if they won, they will remain -bluntly- ugly, however there are many F1 cars that won but twice or many times and are things of beauty, for instance, the 1967 Eagle and Lotus 49, possibly the 72 the 79 and I am sure there are a few more out there, some of Gordon Murray's designs were things of beauty, Len Terry too, Gerard Ducarouge, John Barnard, etc but the above, no, not even their Mother would associate beauty with these beasts
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisb on Feb 18, 2019 21:22:49 GMT
Mikael, interesting, I hope for team strollin's sake that it is more successful than that awful Brabham, and I seem to recollect being at Silverstone watching Damon trying to qualify, it was not a pretty sight, I see Strolling junior is having a pop at Williams, don't think he'll be able to do the same at Daddy's.
|
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Feb 18, 2019 22:37:23 GMT
Rene, I suspect you chose that photo with tongue in cheek.  As modern designs show, il Commendatore, although an astonishing genius, could not have predicted the influence on design of Adrian Newey's obsession with one-car aerodynamics. Newey and his acolytes would be stunned from their vortex reveries if made to understand that racing involves many cars on track at once. While the recent LeMans prototype Audis and Porsches were greatly successful, they were also ugly as sin. On the contrary, although not especially successful as a race car, Enzo Ferrari rightly proclaimed the Jaguar E-Type as the most beautiful car he'd ever seen. Nonetheless, there are examples proving your point. I am extraordinarily ugly, but for some reason women chase me and swoon over my vortices.  Cheers, Carl |
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Feb 18, 2019 22:54:00 GMT
Rene, I admire your passion for Ferrari, I don't necessarily share your sentiments but it would good for F1 if someone other than Mercedes won this year and I hope your passion is rewarded, so to speak, with regards to the beauty of an F1 car, well the above are most certainly not a thing of beauty - even if they won, they will remain -bluntly- ugly, however there are many F1 cars that won but twice or many times and are things of beauty, for instance, the 1967 Eagle and Lotus 49, possibly the 72 the 79 and I am sure there are a few more out there, some of Gordon Murray's designs were things of beauty, Len Terry too, Gerard Ducarouge, John Barnard, etc but the above, no, not even their Mother would associate beauty with these beasts Chris, Well said! I would love to see Mercedes beaten and Ferrari has the best chance if they can only take a deep breath and settle down when pressured. I will be rooting for Charles Leclerc and both Renault drivers and would enjoy seeing Toto Wolf sprain a wrist pounding on his desk in frustration. It's inexcusable that Dan Gurney's Formula One effort was not better supported by corporate America after his successes of 1967. He was never quite the same after.
Cheers, Carl
|
|
|
|
Post by mikael on Feb 19, 2019 4:13:04 GMT
Barcelona test 2018, day 2 (dry); best time: Vettel, Ferrari, 1m20.396s. Barcelona test 2019, day 1 (dry); best time: Vettel, Ferrari, 1m18.161s. More than two seconds faster! It could be the tyres - and the temperatures - but still -- very impressive! A citation from one month back, from Renault technical boss Nick Chester: "... the tweaks to the front wing and other parts of the car will add multiple seconds to the laptime and badly affect the handling". So far, it doesn't seem to be the case, at all -- luckily! ( Source of the citation: www.grandprix.com/news/new-rules-to-make-small-difference-for-overtaking.html ) |
|
|
|
Post by chrisb on Feb 19, 2019 6:34:02 GMT
Carl, there is something about the attraction of opposites, it's worked for me for centuries!
Totally agree re Dan's efforts and the lack of American support - but I also feel Dan's heart went out of F1 after April 68,
Mikael, yesteryear pre-season testing was all about mind-games not times, a small team would post astonishing times a top team would sandbag and it was 'part of the show' wonder if that is still the case? Williams seem to be struggling, hope not
|
|
|
|
Post by robmarsh on Feb 19, 2019 6:49:11 GMT
I think the trend of flat (or matte) paint is just that, a trend, and one without purpose. An unpolished jewel is dull. Ah well Carl, maybe. But in the end I only care if it wins. And in defence of my favourite team, I think Ferrari is the last team that should be critisized for their livery. They are the ONLY team that still races in the national colour. And as Enzo Ferrari once said:  Very true René. I always thought the 312T4 as rather ugly but grew to love it 6 wins later. The new Ferrari does look nice but I think would be nicer even in gloss paint. Another supposed advantage of the matte paint is that it hides some of the aerodynamic curves on the car as the light doesn't reflect off them. I see that Ferrari have stated that SV will get preferential treatment during the first few races. The Scuderia look good this year so here's hoping. |
|
|
|
Post by mikael on Feb 19, 2019 9:26:37 GMT
Carl, there is something about the attraction of opposites, it's worked for me for centuries! Totally agree re Dan's efforts and the lack of American support - but I also feel Dan's heart went out of F1 after April 68, Mikael, yesteryear pre-season testing was all about mind-games not times, a small team would post astonishing times a top team would sandbag and it was 'part of the show' wonder if that is still the case? Williams seem to be struggling, hope not Chris, I'm sure you're right. Still, Vettel set a new lap record during last year's test; it was 1:17.182. With a time of 1:18.161 already on the first day of this year's test, it seems likely that they will find that one second, and probably more, in spite of the pessimism regarding the effect of the new rules on the lap times. It will be interesting to see :-) |
|
|
|
Post by mikael on Feb 19, 2019 13:15:08 GMT
Well, obviously I am alone on this one but I do like the new Ferrari livery. It's different and the car looks like a Merc beater to me.
The matt paint has nothing to do with aero or aesthetics. The only reason is weight. The matt paint saves just under one kilogram. Sounds like nothing but it shows Binotto and his team left nothing untouched that could improve the performance of the car. Forza Ferrari! 
The present generation of cars actually do, I think, look great from an angle like this(*). And regarding the matt paint finish: the halo in matt black; that works very well! You hardly notice it. (And the - still quite convoluted - front wing also in matt black - that's not bad either.)
(*) On the other hand, when photographed from a "just passed by" angle, as below, they (the present cars) do look dreadfully long.
|
|
|
|
Post by René on Feb 19, 2019 18:31:00 GMT
Another day of testing with a Ferrari on top of the list and not by a small margin. This time it was Charles Leclerc who took the honours in his first official session as a Ferrari works driver. And like yesterday, a McLaren taking second spot in a late effort on a softer tyre compound. But still a good result for McLaren who really seem to be moving up the order. The other Ferrari powered cars of Haas and Alfa looking competitive also. Red Bull looked solid but not spectacular until Gasly's crash. Not a nice way to start your Red Bull career. The biggest question mark however is Mercedes. Are they following their own plan and will only start doing performace runs at a later stage of the test? Are they sandbagging? Or have they gone too conservative and are losing ground? After a long period of dominance you can hardly believe they would not be competitive but at some moment in time this will happen. Of course it is way to early to draw conclusions but they have not shown anything special yet, not even a fast sector time...  |
|
|
|
Post by René on Feb 19, 2019 18:41:40 GMT
Ah well Carl, maybe. But in the end I only care if it wins. And in defence of my favourite team, I think Ferrari is the last team that should be critisized for their livery. They are the ONLY team that still races in the national colour. And as Enzo Ferrari once said: Very true René. I always thought the 312T4 as rather ugly but grew to love it 6 wins later. The new Ferrari does look nice but I think would be nicer even in gloss paint. Another supposed advantage of the matte paint is that it hides some of the aerodynamic curves on the car as the light doesn't reflect off them. I see that Ferrari have stated that SV will get preferential treatment during the first few races. The Scuderia look good this year so here's hoping. Rob, it is recorded that even Enzo said after seeing the 312 T4 for the first time that this must be the ugliest F1 car they ever build. But that view changed very fast after the T4 made its debut with a 1-2 at Kyalami and repeating that feat two weeks later at Long Beach!  |
|
|
|
Post by chrisb on Feb 20, 2019 5:50:10 GMT
ugly is in the eye of the loser? having seen the T4 up close - sorry chaps- it is not a thing of beauty, which has me thinking, what were the most unattractive F1 cars I can remember?
the Connaught? the tube of toothpaste - after one of the prettiest cars ever raced Ensign then produced one of the ugliest the N179, there was a Williams with a walrus type front end, one of the first Ligier's with a bulbous air intake, an Arrows - which I saw at Silverstone once, the A2? then all the cars with those really awful front wing attachments of a few years ago, the Caterham amongst them and the 1973 Ferrari B3 was not a thing of creative beauty, interesting
|
|
|
|
Post by René on Feb 21, 2019 14:24:09 GMT
ugly is in the eye of the loser? having seen the T4 up close - sorry chaps- it is not a thing of beauty, which has me thinking, what were the most unattractive F1 cars I can remember? the Connaught? the tube of toothpaste - after one of the prettiest cars ever raced Ensign then produced one of the ugliest the N179, there was a Williams with a walrus type front end, one of the first Ligier's with a bulbous air intake, an Arrows - which I saw at Silverstone once, the A2? then all the cars with those really awful front wing attachments of a few years ago, the Caterham amongst them and the 1973 Ferrari B3 was not a thing of creative beauty, interesting Chris, the T4 is my all time favourite car!  I realize it's probably not the most elegant of F1 cars but racing is also so much about emotion and nostalgia. For me 1979 was the first season I followed from start to finish and I attended two races 'live' that year. Ferrari was my team, Jody already my favourite driver for years and Gilles my new hero. The T4 is deeply engraved in my memory and my being and therefore for me absolutely a thing of beauty! Looking back now, I also think it was a genius design by Forghieri. Building a 'working' ground effect car with the limitations of the flat 12 engine was brilliant and it was the last successful T model of the glorious 312 T series.
 The Ensign N179 was an assault to the senses, ubelievably ugly. I actually like the Arrows A2. Weird yes but not ugly to my eyes.  |
|
|
|
Post by René on Feb 21, 2019 17:49:52 GMT
Back to modern times, 2019 testing at Barcelona.
An interesting day with again (expected) midfield teams posting the fastest times. Good to see the Renaults up on the list and again a fast time for a Toro Rosso Honda. But all these times were set on the softest available compound (C5). And that also goes for both the Mercedes which still makes it hard to judge where they really are. Leclerc in the Ferrari finished in 6th, a tenth behind Lewis but concentrating on long runs on the medium tyre (C3). If he had bolted on C4 or C5 tyres, I am sure he would have done a 1.16. But can the Merc do that too? That's the question...
Edit: Valtteri was on C5 and Lewis on C4. But still, soft tyres to the medium tyres for Charles.
|
|
|
|
Post by mikael on Feb 22, 2019 1:16:53 GMT
ugly is in the eye of the loser? having seen the T4 up close - sorry chaps- it is not a thing of beauty, which has me thinking, what were the most unattractive F1 cars I can remember? the Connaught? the tube of toothpaste - after one of the prettiest cars ever raced Ensign then produced one of the ugliest the N179, there was a Williams with a walrus type front end, one of the first Ligier's with a bulbous air intake, an Arrows - which I saw at Silverstone once, the A2? then all the cars with those really awful front wing attachments of a few years ago, the Caterham amongst them and the 1973 Ferrari B3 was not a thing of creative beauty, interesting Chris, the T4 is my all time favourite car! I realize it's probably not the most elegant of F1 cars but racing is also so much about emotion and nostalgia. For me 1979 was the first season I followed from start to finish and I attended two races 'live' that year. Ferrari was my team, Jody already my favourite driver for years and Gilles my new hero. The T4 is deeply engraved in my memory and my being and therefore for me absolutely a thing of beauty! Looking back now, I also think it was a genius design by Forghieri. Building a 'working' ground effect car with the limitations of the flat 12 engine was brilliant and it was the last successful T model of the glorious 312 T series.
The Ensign N179 was an assault to the senses, ubelievably ugly. I actually like the Arrows A2. Weird yes but not ugly to my eyes. Another oddly looking car was the ATS HS1 of 1978. In terms of originality it was interesting nonetheless; and in the light of the modern LMP-car designs, the upright cockpit design might actually have been rather good, in terms of low of aerodynamic drag. I wonder how the steering wheel-steering column connection was made ... Maybe actually a chain-drive from the steering wheel down to an almost horizontal steering column? Or maybe there was actually room enough, after all, to make it the ordinary way, with a single link? (Judging from the second picture, that might have been the case.)   |
|
As modern designs show, il Commendatore, although an astonishing genius, could not have predicted the influence on design of Adrian Newey's obsession with one-car aerodynamics. Newey and his acolytes would be stunned from their vortex reveries if made to understand that racing involves many cars on track at once.
