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Post by Carl on Nov 19, 2020 17:37:24 GMT
I remember a still photograph in Road & Track magazine taken before either driver had climbed from his car. I was impressed by the bravery of the drivers although the truly brave ones were the ill-equipped safety workers...
The first race I remember being stopped was the non-championship event at Brands Hatch in October, 1971, in which Jo Siffert was tragically killed.
Must have been one of these photos Carl. Frightening pictures and amazing they both survived but as Rob noticed the actual impact wasn't that big so the monocoques were not deformed. Ickx was very lucky he wasn't burned more severely.
The marshals were heros indeed but the whole situation is such a farce with the race continuing. Would they have stopped the race had one of the drivers been trapped in his car? On the other hand, the ever present danger also made it fascinating to watch... still does. As Sherlock Holmes famously said to John Watson with supreme confidence, "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains must be the truth?" Well done, Rene. The first photo is the one, as I remember the blue March passing so close. The terrible death of Lorenzo Bandini at Monaco three years earlier wasn't enough to halt the race, although in its aftermath, (quoted from Wikipedia) "the development of fire-retardant fuel systems and flameproof clothing for drivers and marshals was accelerated, and never again would a TV camera crew be allowed to fly a helicopter low over a burning car." The straw bales surrounding the car after it overturned added fuel to the conflagration, and the television helicopter hovering low overhead idiotically fanned the flames. |
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Post by René on Nov 19, 2020 20:53:22 GMT
Must have been one of these photos Carl. Frightening pictures and amazing they both survived but as Rob noticed the actual impact wasn't that big so the monocoques were not deformed. Ickx was very lucky he wasn't burned more severely.
The marshals were heros indeed but the whole situation is such a farce with the race continuing. Would they have stopped the race had one of the drivers been trapped in his car? On the other hand, the ever present danger also made it fascinating to watch... still does. As Sherlock Holmes famously said to John Watson with supreme confidence, "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains must be the truth?" Well done, Rene. The first photo is the one, as I remember the blue March passing so close. The terrible death of Lorenzo Bandini at Monaco three years earlier wasn't enough to halt the race, although in its aftermath, (quoted from Wikipedia) "the development of fire-retardant fuel systems and flameproof clothing for drivers and marshals was accelerated, and never again would a TV camera crew be allowed to fly a helicopter low over a burning car." The straw bales surrounding the car after it overturned added fuel to the conflagration, and the television helicopter hovering low overhead idiotically fanned the flames. I may hope some lessons were learned from the Bandini accident but more tragedy was needed (think Roger Williamson, Zandvoort 1973) to open organisers eyes and do the obvious; give marshals good equipment and train them how to act in certain situations. As I said in my previous post, the obvious danger was part of the fascination for this sport (certainly for me) but looking at these images now it's almost unbelievable. But it was sort of accepted back then as part of the game I guess. |
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Post by Carl on Nov 20, 2020 17:33:24 GMT
I agree. If climbing a sheer rock cliff without ropes was relatively simple, just being careful and planning each move, we wouldn't be as impressed. Danger has always been fascinating and motorsport has to decide how best to include it.
Emily Harrington climbed Half Dome in Yosemite recently!  |
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Post by chrisb on Nov 21, 2020 8:53:58 GMT
Rene it seemed some countries did sort of half-learn post Monaco 1967, I remember seeing a fire resistant attired marshal at Silverstone that year, but only one, and only at the start, what good post start that would have done anyone is beyond my understanding but it was something, what happened to Roger was just awful and I recollect David Purley's words of anger afterwards and it just felt so dreadful, but then we did start to learn, albeit after tragedy, but then so much is learnt after a tragedy - such as football and the stands, I'm thinking Hillsborough and the 96, Bradford amongst others, a sad way to go about life and death
Carl, if riding a motorbike didn't include adrenalin rushes why would I ride one? no, you need that stimulation, given the speeds of modern F1 there must be a tremendous thrill in managing something of that brute force and speed, trusting everything will hold together and to a degree it is dangerous, but to what degree and having had so many heroes die unnecessarily do we need to raise the danger levels? or is it as you say, a balance and do we have it or do we not, we all got more excited when modern F1 visited a 'proper' racing circuit' with little grip and a test for ability- so maybe that as we have said numerous times is the answer, less grip and more testing circuits, he says with Bahrain next on the agenda....
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Post by mikael on Nov 22, 2020 11:50:23 GMT
Thank you for posting that movie clip, René. It's really interesting to be able to watch events of earlier times as they really looked like, thanks to the latest editing- and colorization- techniques.
Yes, safety didn't get much thought back then. On the other hand, you often feel that nowadays, it has gone too far to the other side. For example, as in the latest GP, when Giovinazzi pulled off the track with a mechanical problem and parked at a place where, it seemed, there was absolutely zero possibility of any hazard - yet the safety car (or, at best, the virtual safety car) is certain to be deployed. Thus, nowadays, the races are interrupted again and again ... Hopefully they will find a better balance (between safety and "over-safe") in the future.
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Post by Carl on Nov 22, 2020 17:16:43 GMT
Pure magic indeed! Thanks a lot René.
In a way, it's a bit depressing to think about that the "heyday of mechanics" (in motorsport and elsewhere) is a thing of the past.
Funny to think about ... long ago, my father apparently sensed in what way the wind was blowing, and for a number years he always tried to get me interested in electronics. But it never grabbed me - it was always mechanics and mechanical things that fascinated me. Well, mechanics has changed our world, but that was long ago. Now it's electronics ...
Here's one for you Mikael with your avatar in live action! It's an interesting mix of original footage of the 1966 Belgian Grand Prix and footage from the movie Grand Prix. It's really cool. I missed this when it was posted. John Frankenheimer was as brilliant a film director as John Surtees and Jim Clark were drivers. The in car and front mounted camera footage in "Grand Prix" is poetic in its beauty. The old Stavelot was a super cool turn, one that's missed today, and the Masta kink was a nasty challenge, but James Garner (Pete Aaron) should have gone through faster! |
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Post by chrisb on Nov 23, 2020 8:47:47 GMT
hear hear Mikael, many many posts ago someone asked the question what do we like about this era versus previous eras - my response was on the line of 'not reading someone's obituary on a Monday morning' and i still maintain that but like you say it has gone almost too far the other way, for me it is more about the circuits, the more the challenging the circuit the higher the risks, but safety cars are over employed and crimes and punishments need reviewing
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Post by mikael on Nov 29, 2020 8:34:21 GMT
Monaco Grand Prix 1975 in full - without narration, only natural sound.
Youtube link: |
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Post by René on Dec 13, 2020 21:10:11 GMT
1977 Dutch Grand Prix. Full race, no commentary but with on screen info on positions. Enjoy!
Or direct Youtube link:
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Post by chrisb on Dec 14, 2020 15:23:01 GMT
oh brilliant, will have to return to it, but watched the start and that wonderful noise and those cars were just beautiful, thank you Rene, beautiful
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Post by Carl on Dec 14, 2020 18:21:06 GMT
oh brilliant, will have to return to it, but watched the start and that wonderful noise and those cars were just beautiful, thank you Rene, beautiful Yes, I also look forward to watching the entire race and wonder if the helicopter in the opening scene was delivering our administrator and his entourage of Hawaiian Tropic ladies to a deluxe suite.  |
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Post by charleselan on Dec 14, 2020 21:02:58 GMT
These "old" race films without commentary are just superb, its almost like actually being at the race and as we all know there are very few commentators that are worth listening to anyway.
There was something very special about the 1970's for me, the cars were fantastic and so many innovations and different concepts as well. Then we have the drivers, doubt there was one you could really dislike.
The one downside to it all were the terrible and needless tragedies, all still raw to this day.
I watched an amateur colour film taken by a spectator at the 1973 Swedish GP at Anderstorp on YouTube last evening but cannot find it to upload here unfortunately as it was quite good and had some excellent paddock shots of teams and drivers. However I did find this superb B&W film of the same race that was done by the BBC "Wheelbase" program, a very good one at that with some superb presenters.
Watching this once more has convinced me that the 1973 Lotus 72E is my favourite all time race car, god I love that car. Also the best ever pairing at Team Lotus with Ronnie & Emerson. Then we have the fabulous Tyrrell 006 with JYS and François, along with the hugely underrated Denny Hulme still incredibly quick at 37 years old in the super sharp Yardley McLaren M23.
Incidentally it was later revealed that Ronnie had a slow puncture in the left rear tyre towards the end which slowed him enough for Denny to win.
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Post by Carl on Dec 15, 2020 5:10:41 GMT
These "old" race films without commentary are just superb, its almost like actually being at the race and as we all know there are very few commentators that are worth listening to anyway. There was something very special about the 1970's for me, the cars were fantastic and so many innovations and different concepts as well. Then we have the drivers, doubt there was one you could really dislike. The one downside to it all were the terrible and needless tragedies, all still raw to this day. I watched an amateur colour film taken by a spectator at the 1973 Swedish GP at Anderstorp on YouTube last evening but cannot find it to upload here unfortunately as it was quite good and had some excellent paddock shots of teams and drivers. However I did find this superb B&W film of the same race that was done by the BBC "Wheelbase" program, a very good one at that with some superb presenters. Watching this once more has convinced me that the 1973 Lotus 72E is my favourite all time race car, god I love that car. Also the best ever pairing at Team Lotus with Ronnie & Emerson. Then we have the fabulous Tyrrell 006 with JYS and François, along with the hugely underrated Denny Hulme still incredibly quick at 37 years old in the super sharp Yardley McLaren M23. Incidentally it was later revealed that Ronnie had a slow puncture in the left rear tyre towards the end which slowed him enough for Denny to win.
A great highlight film! Those racing photographers were an unruly sort, weren't they, John?  I saw all those cars and drivers later that year at Mosport in Canada, the experience now a treasured memory. |
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Post by Carl on Dec 15, 2020 5:55:57 GMT
1977 Dutch Grand Prix. Full race, no commentary but with on screen info on positions. Enjoy! René, Wonderful! It's absorbing to see an entire race unfold, especially during the glory days of Formula One. Mario Andretti on pole was a remarkable 6/10ths faster than second qualifier Jacques Laffite but James Hunt made the best start from the second row and I remember how furious Mario was, probably with justification, when James forced him wide exiting the first turn. |
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Post by charleselan on Dec 15, 2020 12:04:26 GMT
1977 Dutch Grand Prix. Full race, no commentary but with on screen info on positions. Enjoy! René, Wonderful! It's absorbing to see an entire race unfold, especially during the glory days of Formula One. Mario Andretti on pole was a remarkable 6/10ths faster than second qualifier Jacques Laffite but James Hunt made the best start from the second row and I remember how furious Mario was, probably with justification, when James forced him wide exiting the first turn. Carl, I believe this to be the race in which Mario and James Hunt had a heated exchange about the principles of overtaking. Mario was mighty peeved with Hunt for the incident you outlined and was frustrated being stuck behind him as a result of the Lotus 78's lack of top speed. He eventually attempted to run around the outside of James at Tarzan which was more or less successfully completed until Hunt ran out into him causing a collision and retirement. James Hunt was vociferous in complaining about Andretti's driving and that you cannot overtake around the outside, to which Mario replied that he would overtake where ever he could, end of conversation. Another example of "English Exceptionalism"  . Cheers John |
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