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Post by charleselan on Oct 30, 2017 22:26:36 GMT
Many thanks Chris & Carl,
I always tend to sail against the wind  .
The thought of Brendon & Pierre at Williams is a cracker Chris, for I just cannot take seriously Stroll no matter what results he may achieve, and as lovely a guy as Felipe is he should have taken the same route as Jensen.
I think that the main problem between Lewis and Nico over the years has been the fact that Hamilton was always a tad quicker and that Rosberg was far more intelligent. The comparison between Max and Ayrton can be drawn by the following factors; intelligence; refusal to accept they could in anyway be wrong; supreme self belief and blinding speed. The only difference I can see at this stage is that Ayrton was somewhat dour in his pursuit of perfection, whereas young Max is ebullient and effervescent in all that he does.
If Red Bull can develop this car into next season and Renault can get some more oomph and reliability then the others are going to have their work cut out and that includes both of the four time champs and he who would be king, the Conquistador  .
John Charles
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Post by René on Oct 30, 2017 22:58:47 GMT
JC, I couldn't agree more. About the circuit which they have ruined and about Max and the fact he is far more Senna'esk than Lewis.
I have expressed my feelings about this track (and other tracks) before. It is just sad that the people who are responsible for the new tracks and the redesign of old tracks like Mexico have no understanding about Formula 1 and how it should be. It is something I cannot get my head around how this is possible and continues in the same way. And when I hear the Dutch commentator raving about how wonderful this track and especially the stadium section is, I feel we're lost. Because all those new fans in Holland (and there are many!) now think this is the way it should be. They have no idea...
As for Max, he has the speed and the ruthlessness of Senna. The big difference is he has no religion or higher goal that motivates him or gives him direction. He couldn't care less. And I actually think that will be his strength. I only hope he doesn't become too arrogant or an a*****e like his dad.
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Post by chrisb on Oct 31, 2017 5:29:07 GMT
Max to me is an opportunist and instinctive driver, something Senna was, but Lewis has a similar attitude to Senna when it comes to owning a piece of the track, whereas I don't feel Max has that attitude, well, not yet anyway, the other thing as Rene says Senna was literally on a different planet at times and no one can achieve that again-
Rene the Dutch commentators views are disheartening to say the least, I did watch via MS that you-tub piece of Mansell being annoyed by Berger's overtake, let's be honest no-one could do emotion like Mansell- and you realise just how much a shadow the new circuit has become of what was a pretty good circuit,
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 31, 2017 10:19:21 GMT
Hi Gentlemen
John Charles your summation of the Mexican GP was spot on. I do think LH was the most deserving of the title this year. He won the most races for a start and made the best use of the resources at his disposal. Ferrari tried hard but it was a big gap to bridge from last year. I do think though that they will be very competitive over the next few seasons. I also think that they are making a strategic error in having a number 1 and a number 2. It only works if you have a Schumacher and that only worked because between Hakkinen and Alonso's coming of age there was no driver on the same level as Schumacher. We currently have five guys of very similar ability it is only the cars making the difference. Rene correct me if I am wrong but until Schumacher got there Ferrari always had two drivers of very similar ability. They changed it for Schumacher but it only worked in that particular set of circumstances. They won 2007 and almost 2008 because they went back to their original plan. Vettel is not a Schumacher and nor is the competition the same level as Schumacher's.
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Post by charleselan on Oct 31, 2017 11:47:34 GMT
Rob; René & Chris,
Some excellent replies from you all here, with interesting observations.
With regard to the Mexican circuit, I think we are all in agreement without reservation, it was/is truly appalling and if your Dutch commentator(s) are praising it René, then all I can say is "we are all doomed". The quote will resonate with gentlemen of a certain age who viewed UK TV in the 1970's . In fact the "half Tyre" markers of old look like an excellent solution to me, for no driver no matter how belligerent would wish to argue with them. Of course we cannot have the multi million Euro/pound/dollar front wing damaged by such a thing can we!
Chris with regard to your comment about Hamilton owning the track like Senna, I would not disagree. I have to say two of the things that i found unappealing (wonderfully expressive word used by yourself earlier) about Lewis' driving over the years has been associated with that very thing. Firstly he had the really nasty habit of chopping in front of a guy he had just overtaken, done for a very specific reason and which once was a strict no; no with drivers; as you do not take the air from another car entering a corner. He came undone with that eventually at Spa when he did that to Checo Perez (I believe) and ended up getting tagged and wrecked his car.
The other is his myopic ability to drive a guy off circuit when challenged, something he did to Rosberg on a regular basis. That for me was one of the things that lead to the discord between the two, and therefore fire Nico up to retaliate.
With regard to driver pairings Rob, you are correct, and for the simple reason you need two drivers of similar ability to take points from the opposition. Also if one of your guys has a run of bad luck i.e. the designate number one then a weak number two isn't going to step in and win instead. Michael always had preferential status in all the teams he drove for except at MB when he returned, however as we all know he wasn't the same driver then anyway.
I think it is easy to say that the opposition in Michael's era was not high quality, except for Mika and latterly Alonso. But maybe we underestimate the contribution of Damon Hill who would I feel have been strong had Williams retained him; yet another example of poor judgement from Williams as managers. Jacques Villeneuve was feisty and a worthy opponent but far too quirky and not blessed like his father.
Alesi and Berger had plenty of ability but were either not dedicated enough, or disciplined enough to get the best of what they had. The real sad thing is the fact that Johnny Herbert could have been the guy to really take Michael on but those injuries he sustained in the f3000 race at Brands Hatch crippled his real ability.
Incidentally there was a really touching film about Johnny on SKY before the qualifying on Saturday, in it Eddie Jordan was almost in tears when describing his comeback and the accident.
So yes both MB and Ferrari need two drivers in their teams that are capable of regular wins, that is the common sense scenario, however if they did it would destabilise both of their prima madonnas who appear to need a compliant team mate.
Your thought gentlemen?
John Charles
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 31, 2017 14:45:59 GMT
Hi Charles
I should have clarified what I meant by Mika and Fernando and rather said for the period 2001 to 2004. Damon I think retired at the the end of 1999 and JV squandered his talent with BAR, rather like Emmo did with Copusucar. It is so sad what happened to Johhny Herbert, I wonder what would have been. Even to win three GPs with those injuries was amazing. Frank Williams and Patrick Head must be the worst managers in the business. They managed to lose four world champions within 12 months of winning the title, in Damon's case even before-crazy. Damon was a tough, though very nice guy and I have a lot of respect for him. I would put him behind Jim Clark and JYS in terms of talent but right up with them in terms of integrity and being a gentleman. Way ahead of his old man. Alesi and Berger were lazy with regard to the application of their talent. they had the skill and the cars to have each won a championship with Ferrari but lacked the ultimate discipline to my mind. Alesi should have won far more than one GP. I think it is madness for MB and Ferrari to bow down to the demands of their number one drivers. If they are that sure of their talent they should prove it. That's why for me Schumacher will never come ahead of Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost, or Senna because he was never prepared to have an equal driver in the same car.
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Post by charleselan on Oct 31, 2017 19:04:02 GMT
Hi Rob,
I would say that your last sentence sums up my feelings as well. I can never recall Michael racing from a level playing field, be it with a competitive team mate or with the suspicion that all was not correct with what was permitted within his team(s) or car(s). Ecclestone's assertions that have been brought to light in actual fact supported what I had already observed back in those times.
Many hold Ross Brawn in high regard, however I have my reservations simply because throughout his career he made a mockery of the rule book, be it with Benetton or Ferrari, and MB, if we recall the "secret tyre test with team drivers in black helmets". Also with the TWR Jaguar that was to all intent a F1 car with even more downforce thanks to the bodywork dimensions.
John Charles
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Post by chrisb on Oct 31, 2017 20:18:07 GMT
hopefully without getting a tadge boring, I was at Brands when Johnny had his 'bad one' and it was to do with a blocker, who had no right being on that grid, in the first part Johnny and Martin streaked away and the rest were held up behind a blatant blocker Foitek, Moreno I think it was tried to overtake him just past the pits when he got turfed out, result race stopped, 2nd start that terrible accident, this is one of the reasons I so detest the blocking and carving up tactics of the few, but by then it had been 'accepted' I despise it!
Rob,
I met Damon in 1995 and once he had finished the job for the day he was a genuinely nice guy, and the most amazing eyes I have ever seen, to get a real insight I would strongly recommend reading his book, it really is a heart-wrenching story and one, his Dad would have been very proud of. Rob am intrigued by your comment that he was 'way ahead of his old man' - Graham was an interesting chap - far more serious than people realised but tough. But may I say how much I am in agreement with your sentiment regarding Michael - he was an incredible driver but I would honestly say I wouldn't put him in my top 10 because of his ruthlessness and dubiousness
John Charles, we are in agreement mon ami, didn't Senna question the legality of the Benetton in 94? -
I always felt Ross Brawn was probably the most intelligent person in pit-lane and as a human being I enjoy his views, as a designer - manager etc I do not because as you quite rightly say my friend, he did make a mockery of not only the rule book but Formula one and it's past, present and possibly it's future
Incidentally whilst I think Gerhard a superb driver I do not consider him in the same bracket of the likes of Senna but he would have made an excellent no 2 to Michael, and let's not forget on more than one occasion Barrichello was a quicker driver
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Post by Jamie on Oct 31, 2017 21:32:53 GMT
I was with my Dad at Brands that day as well Chris and remember being very upset at the scene, moved to tears which I was very embarrassed about being 15 and concerned with my image. We were stood at Clark Curve so witnessed the accident in real time.......horrendous. Johnny was never really the same again afterwards, a great shame.
I found your comments RE: Damon interesting, he’s always struck me as a thoroughly decent bloke and man of great depth.....a gentleman as well as a gentle man. I also enjoyed his book immensely as it laid out what a interesting story lies behind Damon the man, as well as the World Champion racing driver.
Incidentally, after reading the book I found myself in Mill Hill (North London) for a meeting and paid the house he grew up in a visit, the blue plague to his father proudly on display. It’s great that the house is remembered in such a way.....the parties there are legendary!
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 1, 2017 14:30:54 GMT
hopefully without getting a tadge boring, I was at Brands when Johnny had his 'bad one' and it was to do with a blocker, who had no right being on that grid, in the first part Johnny and Martin streaked away and the rest were held up behind a blatant blocker Foitek, Moreno I think it was tried to overtake him just past the pits when he got turfed out, result race stopped, 2nd start that terrible accident, this is one of the reasons I so detest the blocking and carving up tactics of the few, but by then it had been 'accepted' I despise it! Rob, I met Damon in 1995 and once he had finished the job for the day he was a genuinely nice guy, and the most amazing eyes I have ever seen, to get a real insight I would strongly recommend reading his book, it really is a heart-wrenching story and one, his Dad would have been very proud of. Rob am intrigued by your comment that he was 'way ahead of his old man' - Graham was an interesting chap - far more serious than people realised but tough. But may I say how much I am in agreement with your sentiment regarding Michael - he was an incredible driver but I would honestly say I wouldn't put him in my top 10 because of his ruthlessness and dubiousness John Charles, we are in agreement mon ami, didn't Senna question the legality of the Benetton in 94? - I always felt Ross Brawn was probably the most intelligent person in pit-lane and as a human being I enjoy his views, as a designer - manager etc I do not because as you quite rightly say my friend, he did make a mockery of not only the rule book but Formula one and it's past, present and possibly it's future Incidentally whilst I think Gerhard a superb driver I do not consider him in the same bracket of the likes of Senna but he would have made an excellent no 2 to Michael, and let's not forget on more than one occasion Barrichello was a quicker driver Thanks Chris I think I have read just about all the books on Damon Hill including his latest one. That has given me a good insight into the man as has his TV appearances both in the old days and now. He often got the short end of the stick when he was racing due to his innate politeness but he never changed. Graham Hill was an interesting chap but he put himself front and centre at the expense of his family in everything he did and I got the impression that he felt they were lucky to be part of his coterie. He could be incredibly funny but I think he caused a lot of hurt in his family with his rumoured philanderings. Not my type of bloke. I agree with both yours and Charles' view on Ross Brawn. He was brilliant at strategy on the pit wall but there is always a question mark surrounding a few things with the teams he was with. |
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Post by René on Nov 1, 2017 14:33:36 GMT
That's why for me Schumacher will never come ahead of Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost, or Senna because he was never prepared to have an equal driver in the same car. Michael Schumacher. Is it possible to have a 'love-hate' relationship with a racing driver? Well, for me it is with regards to Michael Schumacher. We all remember how he made his entrance in Formula One and it didn't take long for everyone to be convinced (including the leading drivers of the time) that he was the real deal, the new upcoming superstar. Exactly what we see now with Max Verstappen; just ask Lewis or Seb! Schumacher's speed and dedication were obvious from the word go and he rarely made mistakes (that is, driving errors). But when he torpedo'd Hill in Australia, his determination to win also showed a dark side; ruthlessness. His first two titles with Benetton will always have this air of cheating and unsportsmanlike behavior. Then, during 1995, came the first rumors of a Schumacher-Ferrari link. Ferrari was in the process of rebuilding the team after several very unsuccessful years and if there was one thing missing, it was a proven race winner, a top 3 driver. Berger seemed over his peak and Alesi just wasn't the man to guide Ferrari to new highs. I remember having mixed feelings at first. I knew Ferrari needed a top driver (remember Prost in 1990) but Schumacher? But gradually I became more convinced he would be the right choice, even before it was officially announced. I believed he would loose his bad tricks because he was older now and he would drive for Ferrari. And it was clear he was the best. And when he finally was an official Scuderia driver and had his first outing at Fiorano in the '95 car, he was overwhelming. He was so much faster than Jean and Gerhard had ever been in that same car! No one doubted his words when he said he could have won a lot of races in this car and maybe even fight for the championship! He was sincerely surprised by how good that car actually was. I was very excited at the beginning of the '96 season, full of hope despite a minor disappointment with the new Ferrari. It looked a bit bulky and not a real winner. But now 'we' had Schumacher. And didn't Michael show how an exceptional driver can make a difference in a team, even if the car wasn't that competitive? He certainly did and 1996 was a very good first year at Ferrari for Michael. Maybe 'only' three wins but I knew for sure it would have been zero wins with Berger and Alesi. The Barcelona win in the rain is still legendary. The next season was again very exciting. Williams had clearly the best car but Ferrari made a good step forward. Schumacher didn't necessarily need the best car to win a championship. Second best could do. Michael at his peak was the kind of driver who would never be out of the game unless his car stopped completely. Even if he was dead last you still had the feeling he could do something magic. And magic he was on many occasions. But unfortunately he did not lose his bad tricks either with an absolute low in Jerez. I just couldn't believe that action. My Ferrari passion was never in question but I also had a weak spot for Jacques, the son of my childhood hero and I liked his punky rebel style attitude, a bit like I was myself some years before ;-). I also supported Jacques passionately in his CART years. So I was disappointed with Michael. After many fantastic races and wins and me jumping on the sofa of excitement, this was just very disappointing. Losing is always hard but if you lose, than lose in style. Like Massa did in Brazil 2008. Jumping a bit further in time after having lost out in '98 and '99, the championship finally came back to Maranello. The year 2000 was a tense season and when Michael finally clinched the title in Japan I was so emotional I actually couldn't stop crying! 21 years I waited! There were several friends and family members who called me, even early in the morning, to congratulate me! They knew what this meant for me. So I couldn't be happier. And then I saw the team celebrating with these ridiculous red wigs... and I had again this slight feeling of disappointment. I thought it wasn't very stylish, not how the first Ferrari championship since 21 years should be celebrated. Ah well, love and hate... |
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Post by charleselan on Nov 1, 2017 15:14:06 GMT
Good Day All from a beautifully sunny northern France; not bad for the 1st November .
Some really excellent posts from you all and so enjoyable to read about the events that some of you attended and your own impressions on drivers new and old.
I should have been at that Brands F3000 meeting Chris & Jamie but had some other life things to attend to at the time so was not there. It was indeed a very dark day with that multiple crash which inflicted such awful injuries on Johnny Herbert. René you have mentioned above that when Michael made his debut at Spa he was the "real deal", and there can be no argument about that, I had seen it in his Sauber Mercedes Group C days, especially at Le Mans.
Before that dreadful accident there was no doubt in my mind that Johnny was the "real deal", he had been sensational in Formula Ford and then driving for Eddie Jordan in F3, one race at Thruxton springs to mind when he came back up through a quality field, the like of which took some believing. Debuting in Eddie's Reynard F3000 he was instantly the man, that is until that accident. Damon, bless him. said on Saturday that he felt Johnny was going to be the next multiple British World Champion, as he was that good.
The culprit in the instigation of that accident and other events, Gregor Foitek, was in my opinion the biggest liability on the race track at international level. Unfortunately for others he could be fast, that is a for the short period of time he stayed on the track. He obviously had some money behind him that enabled him to get into some competitive machinery. He tried F1 and I recall him trying to pre-qualify the Brun car at Silverstone one year, unsuccessfully thankfully, I believe it ended up in the fence somewhere.
Damon Hill is a true gentleman and always presents himself very well on the SKY broadcast, in fact I would say that he actually gives the otherwise poor presentation some quality. Some have always demeaned his driving and world title, which is crass and very undeserved. He pulled Williams up by its boot straps after Ayrton, just as his father had done before when Jim was killed. He like many drivers was poorly treated by the Williams management; and as Rob mentions it is that side of the team that has always been found wanting, their man management skills are woeful even to this day.
John Charles
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Post by René on Nov 1, 2017 16:58:04 GMT
So yes both MB and Ferrari need two drivers in their teams that are capable of regular wins, that is the common sense scenario, however if they did it would destabilise both of their prima madonnas who appear to need a compliant team mate.
Your thought gentlemen?
John CharlesI actually think this is a balancing act that many teams have struggled with and still do. Let's be honest, no team wants a Prost/Senna or Alonso/Hamilton or Hamilton/Rosberg situation. Well, maybe in terms of success but not in terms of people's management. Ferrari have taken the no.1 driver status too far since the Schumacher days, no question. And I don't understand their resigning of Kimi again and again either. Kimi is not bad but he needs to step up when Seb has an issue and too often this has not happened. But who to sign instead of Kimi? A guy like Ocon would be great but you can see how good and eager he is and how difficult that is for the team to manage between the two drivers. So I understand the hesitation but Ferrari is too safe. And if they want to win the Constructors title they need a stronger partner to Seb. Mercedes I am not sure about. I believe they would be more open to a strong driver next to Lewis. Although the Rosberg situation gave them a lot of headaches. Signing Bottas was never planned and they ran out of options. Lewis wouldn't mind a strong no.2. |
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Post by chrisb on Nov 1, 2017 20:39:25 GMT
Rene, what a wonderful read about Michael, after a very long day it is a real heart warmer! My annoyance of Michael is simple, he didn't need to drive like this, he was that good, but you couldn't get that message across, what he did to Damon in Adelaide was awful and the worst piece of motor sport i can remember, for that in my humble opinion Michael showed something no fan should ever see and my estimation of his skills were severely diminished that day. There were many comments about the legality of the Benetton and these rumours increased when he joined Ferrari, and then 1997 - ah, then was it Austria? then America? I just cannot see Jimmy or Jackie doing anything like this,
ironically when you met Michael - he was such a lovely down-to-earth bloke who was nothing like the TV image at all, that to me, is the sadness of Michael, he was that quick he didn't need these tactics [Spa vs Hakkinen] he was that intelligent he really should have been above these tactics and he was such a lovely bloke - he really could have been without any doubt the GOAT
John Charles et al- we talk of Michael not having a decent no 2 but here we are talking of times when he was outdriven by his team mate who, when allowed to race, could challenge him,
Whilst no Ferrari fan I cannot help feeling goosebumps when at a race track the scarlet cars emerge, there is something very special about these cars, and for me their reputations was forever damaged by 'team orders'
with regards to Lewis - sorry I don't agree I think he would much prefer a subordinate to an equal, which is why I am hoping Daniel goes there!
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