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Post by Carl on Apr 30, 2018 22:51:15 GMT
Jamie,
Exactly so. Kirby's assessment of Rick Mears was correct and he wasn't the only American to decline a serious offer to drive Formula One. Parnelli Jones declined the number two seat at Lotus. Although both drivers were greatly honored, they had already established success and were not eager for culture shock and the steep learning curve of circuits they'd never seen.
That divide still exists.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2018 7:12:39 GMT
I was a Mears' fan too and when they published the photos of his Brabham test at Estoril I really hoped he would jump to F1.
But I won't shy away from saying what I think.
I am making few questions and reply now, meaning at the time my answers would have been a bit more naïve, if I may say so.
Would he have walked it in F1? Unlikely. In his first season, he would have done marginally better than for example Sullivan on the Tyrrell. Would he have bettered Piquet? Not a chance. After several years, maybe, but it is some "maybe". Would he have made a success of it? Possibly, after several - say, five - years of toil. But no guarantee.
If I recall right he was an oval specialist and perhaps not the ultimate talent on road courses.
History teaches that the passage works when F1 drivers go to the US, not the other way round. Only those - like Phil Hill and Dan Gurney - who completely dedicated their careers to racing in Europe succeeded. Even Mario Andretti had to finally fully commit and it took him years - like any other driver, European or South American has to - before to succeed. His son, I thought he had what it takes talent-wise, but he wasn't ready to commit several years to make a success of it. Difficult particularly when you know you have got it easy in the US, winning every other week.
Kirby can talk up his American drivers as much as he wants, because talk without the burden of actual proof is cheap.
F1 is not another "series". It's the top of the three, a cut-throat business at every level. Look at what is going on, as example, between talented drivers like Ricciardo and Verstappen. And they still can't come even close to winning a world championship.
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Post by robmarsh on May 1, 2018 7:15:41 GMT
I think in the Donaldson biography it talks of Gaston Parent hiding evidence of Gilles’ affair........different times. The Pironi book is well worth a read, I really enjoyed it. It’s written by a Pironi fan of course, much as the pro Villeneuve stuff is written by his own supporters......I had that in mind when I read it after the excellent opinions of the Imola fracas from the ROTRT. You are correct Jamie, Donaldson does mention an affair. The Pironi book is slightly more detailed on this and puts it down to the friendship between the more sophisticated Pironi and the country lad, Villeneuve. Similar in a way to Jim Clark becoming more worldly after being "mentored" by Jabby Crombac in Paris. Gerald Donaldson's books on Villeneuve, Hunt and Fangio are all very good books, factual without being judgemental or fawning.
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Post by Jamie on May 1, 2018 9:20:14 GMT
I was a Mears' fan too and when they published the photos of his Brabham test at Estoril I really hoped he would jump to F1.
But I won't shy away from saying what I think.
I am making few questions and reply now, meaning at the time my answers would have been a bit more naïve, if I may say so.
Would he have walked it in F1? Unlikely. In his first season, he would have done marginally better than for example Sullivan on the Tyrrell. Would he have bettered Piquet? Not a chance. After several years, maybe, but it is some "maybe". Would he have made a success of it? Possibly, after several - say, five - years of toil. But no guarantee.
If I recall right he was an oval specialist and perhaps not the ultimate talent on road courses.
History teaches that the passage works when F1 drivers go to the US, not the other way round. Only those - like Phil Hill and Dan Gurney - who completely dedicated their careers to racing in Europe succeeded. Even Mario Andretti had to finally fully commit and it took him years - like any other driver, European or South American has to - before to succeed. His son, I thought he had what it takes talent-wise, but he wasn't ready to commit several years to make a success of it. Difficult particularly when you know you have got it easy in the US, winning every other week.
Kirby can talk up his American drivers as much as he wants, because talk without the burden of actual proof is cheap.
F1 is not another "series". It's the top of the three, a cut-throat business at every level. Look at what is going on, as example, between talented drivers like Ricciardo and Verstappen. And they still can't come even close to winning a world championship.
Oh agreed Lucio, he wouldn’t have walked it, not by a long shot. F1 is the pinnacle and raises the bar to another level but Mears had the skills to compete at the top level, undoubtedly. I don’t think he had the desire to leave his sure thing in the US which can be seen as a weakness or strength depending on which way the wind is blowing 😂 How far his skill would ultimately have taken him is a matter of conjecture. Rick got a reputation as an oval specialist in the second phase of his career......after the accident. After that he was never quite the same on road courses as he was never able to brake as hard as before, switched to his left foot but something was lost. Of course on the ovals this is not as much of a factor.
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Post by Carl on May 1, 2018 15:48:09 GMT
I was a Mears' fan too and when they published the photos of his Brabham test at Estoril I really hoped he would jump to F1.
But I won't shy away from saying what I think.
I am making few questions and reply now, meaning at the time my answers would have been a bit more naïve, if I may say so.
Would he have walked it in F1? Unlikely. In his first season, he would have done marginally better than for example Sullivan on the Tyrrell. Would he have bettered Piquet? Not a chance. After several years, maybe, but it is some "maybe". Would he have made a success of it? Possibly, after several - say, five - years of toil. But no guarantee.
If I recall right he was an oval specialist and perhaps not the ultimate talent on road courses.
History teaches that the passage works when F1 drivers go to the US, not the other way round. Only those - like Phil Hill and Dan Gurney - who completely dedicated their careers to racing in Europe succeeded. Even Mario Andretti had to finally fully commit and it took him years - like any other driver, European or South American has to - before to succeed. His son, I thought he had what it takes talent-wise, but he wasn't ready to commit several years to make a success of it. Difficult particularly when you know you have got it easy in the US, winning every other week.
Kirby can talk up his American drivers as much as he wants, because talk without the burden of actual proof is cheap.
F1 is not another "series". It's the top of the three, a cut-throat business at every level. Look at what is going on, as example, between talented drivers like Ricciardo and Verstappen. And they still can't come even close to winning a world championship.
Lucio, I don't recall anyone denigrating Formula One as just another series, although the neglect of those who deviously obtained ownership has moved it in that direction. A pinnacle cannot endure forever when it's also someone's cash cow. We all tend to be experts in our own front yards. How well did Nelson Piquet do at Indy? Scegli saggiamente e rilassati, amico mio Cheers, Carl
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2018 20:42:00 GMT
Carl, fully relaxed here. I have said what I think, which is what Jamie said: Mears had the skills to compete at the top level. But how people - Kirby - expected him to succeed without have ever raced in Europe (not just a matter track knowledge) is beyond me. F1 is already difficult enough on its own, without hunger and desire it quickly becomes a nightmare, ask Michael A. Kirby thinks that as Mario cracked it, his fellow top US drivers would have too. I beg to differ, also because there is only one Mario. But I would like to ponder what might have been had AJ accepted Ferrari's offer. Fireworks, no doubt. Cheers Carl PS: Al Unser Sr, I think he was the real deal for F1. At Mario's level.
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Post by Jamie on May 1, 2018 20:59:41 GMT
Do you know Lucio, despite him being a huge figure in our sport, Al Unser Snr is someone I know very little about.
I was never a fan of his son but I’ll have to look into Snr and find out a bit more.
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Post by Carl on May 1, 2018 21:32:28 GMT
Lucio and Jamie, Al Unser was the real deal, possibly as good as Andretti, but had no desire to race in Europe. No other Unsers were as good on a road course as Al Senior.
Going back and forth by Concorde worked for Mario, but his son needed more focus. Michael should have stayed in Europe and been available for testing. Every Andretti generation seems to lose a slight amount of natural ability, but Michael's skill was close to his father's. I hadn't heard of A.J. Foyt being offered a drive by Ferrari! It wouldn't have worked well. Foyt was far better on ovals than road courses, which was true of most Indy drivers in that era. Mario Andretti, Parnelli Jones and Al Unser were hugely talented exceptions. They learned to use dirt track skills in road racing, just as Kenny Roberts did in MotoGP. At that time, there was a stark division between road racers and oval drivers and they mostly exchanged insults.
Cheers, Carl
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Post by René on May 1, 2018 22:09:09 GMT
Is it also not a cultural thing? Could it be that it is in general easier for a European to adjust in the States than the other way around? It worked for Mario but he was in fact a European, born in Italy. It worked for Jacques Villeneuve. Travelled the world in his childhood, lived and raced in Italy. Then went to conquer the States and then returned to Europe to win the F1 crown. What an enormous feat come to think of it...
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Post by Carl on May 1, 2018 23:34:52 GMT
Is it also not a cultural thing? Could it be that it is in general easier for a European to adjust in the States than the other way around? It worked for Mario but he was in fact a European, born in Italy. It worked for Jacques Villeneuve. Travelled the world in his childhood, lived and raced in Italy. Then went to conquer the States and then returned to Europe to win the F1 crown. What an enormous feat come to think of it... Rene, Yes, relocating involves cultural concerns, especially, as you suggest, for those not widely traveled. I also believe that having an enclave of one's countrymen where you will relocate helps tremendously. I suspect that factor may work in favor of a European relocating to America, although I'm not sure. Jacques Villeneuve seemed destined for greatness in the mid-90s and somehow went astray. Sons of famous fathers sometimes are conflicted about surpassing their idol. Didn't Nico Rosberg make the conscious decision to retire after equaling his father? Sigmund Freud spent too much time obsessing about women and cigars to help here. I had my own experience of going astray when I spent a youthful summer in Europe. Beautiful women would press their door keys into my hand and whisper, "Yankee go home". I haven't heard that wonderful refrain in years. Cheers, Carl
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Post by chrisb on May 2, 2018 4:43:42 GMT
well, Rene, Carl I am not so sure, i do tend to think it is more about your mindset than your origins, Dan, Richie and Phil didn't do too badly, but Ronnie Buckdum didn't do great, Masten did well, and AJ did ok at Le Mans - and there was a time when F1 went grabbing Indycar drivers, ok Montoya had European experience as did Alex, as for Michael, I do feel he could have developed into a race winner, people talk of the commuting and they are right, but for me it was a racing manners thing as well, at Donington he made a great start but clashed with Weindlinger which i don't think would have happened in the Indycar series, I don't know I just think so much was stacked against Michael i always had the feeling there were people who didn't want this to work, but i never doubted his ability
Freud vs Jung, the final conflict, but in this instance? maybe Erikson or Piaget and their developmental processes?
funny enough Carl, I am wondering if that refrain won't be heard a bit more in July...
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2018 7:57:48 GMT
Cultural thing, certainly, but let’s see if we can be more specific. Obviously there are no reasons why American drivers should not be successful in Europe.
At the top level - F1 - the main issue is that F1 is really the “pinnacle” because the competition is extreme not just among drivers, but also technically, among constructors. It is, always been, the sharp technical edge. The drivers selected to drive for the best teams go through a further selection: first to get to F1, then very few get the best seats and a shot at glory.
That explains why going from Europe to the US has usually been relatively easier – Lotus, Clark, Graham Hill, Stewart, Brabham, even Zanardi – for those accustomed to the top F1 level.
Coming from series of comparable level, but in fact not so technically taut as F1, may not prepare for the competition shock that F1 really is.
That is why to make it in F1, a driver usually goes through the European selection process. That is why anybody, big names included – Mears, Unser Sr, Michael A. – to make it in F1 would require several years of acclimatisation. Unless they went through the lower series here in Europe.
There have been American drivers who came to Europe to start on the ladder – Rahal, Smiley, Sullivan, even Danica – and then went back to the States. Some of them – Rahal – were above average too.
Without going back to the times of Phil Hill and Dan Gurney, whom however both prove the above hypotheses, there are two glaring exceptions to the above and, alas, the last successful North American drivers in F1. Mario Andretti and Gilles Villeneuve.
Mario was obviously a European to begin with, caught the racing bug by watching “F1” (Ascari) at Monza as a kid and the Mille Miglia on the streets, but grew as a full American driver on dirt tracks etc, before giving in to the pull of his “ancestral” culture. I don’t think it is remarked often in Europe how seriously good Mario was.
Gilles was an outstanding talent who grew up racing in the Canadian backwater (if I may say so), had a lucky break into F1, Enzo Ferrari stick by him through thick and thin (Teddy Meyer, American but rooted in Europe, famously preferred Tambay to him - I suppose that was also in part "cultural") and pretty much made it in his own, unconventional, fashion all the way through.
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Post by charleselan on May 2, 2018 10:24:55 GMT
Great debate guys. I am going to sit on the fence with this one and simply throw a few things out for added interest (possibly).
Al Snr & Parnelli Jones were both exceptional drivers and I have little doubt that both would have been superb GP drivers. In the early part of the 1960's there were quite a lot of Americans who tried F1, Jim Hall; Peter Revson (back to him in a while) and Roger Penske. All of these drove relatively uncompetitive cars at the time so it would be hard to judge them on the face of things. However all were class drivers and would have adapted well; Revvie eventually did and became a fine GP driver. Another who would have been right up there was young Timmy Mayer who was highly rated, but sadly died in his early days during the Tasman season. I also understand that Dave McDonald was very good on road courses but sadly died at Indy; similarly I have no doubt that Swede Savage would have been pretty impressive but he was taken all too early as well.
OK, that is just some names to conjure with.
The other thing to consider is the fact that many of the American top guys were probably earning far more racing in the States than most GP, if not all, drivers at the time, so therefore financial reasons also come into play.
On the opposite side of things, it must have been a big culture shock for all those South Americans who came over to Europe to ply their trade in the very late 60's early 70's. Look at Emerson's meteoric rise to fame and also Carlos Pace and Carlos Reutemann, they adapted pretty quickly. Emerson then came out of retirement and was amazing in American racing.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2018 11:47:48 GMT
The mention of the South Americans by JC is key to the discussion.
In the decades when English-speaking drivers monopolised F1, since most teams were based in the UK; Elf helped the French; the Germans almost non-existent (because there was no support, after some timid attempt by BMW); the Italians still missing in action since the early Fifties – the South Americans have shown to everybody how it’s done.
Hunger, desire to emerge, spirit of sacrifice, cunning and obviously talent. I suppose when you’ve got it plentiful at home - as the Americans do, and now most everybody else, South Americans included whom are indeed disappearing - the prospect of toiling for years in grey and gloomy Britain, without certainty of returns, must be a powerful turn-off to aspirations of eventually making it big in F1.
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Post by charleselan on May 2, 2018 15:33:19 GMT
Spending some time on the computer today as the weather is again unpleasant here in Northern France, so had a brief trip along to the MS Forum. It is good to do at times as it brings home to one how good our site is, and how people can discuss in a civilised manner etc.
My attention was drawn to the tedious "Hall of Fame 2018" nominations. Some guy opened a few wounds by mentioning something rather poor about Gilles, as one would expect the replies came in fast! The guy claimed that Alan Jones had called Gilles a "Rock Ape", which I have to say I had not heard before. In fact I had thought (rightly I might add) that AJ was highly praiseworthy of Gilles. Anyway Mark Hughes weighed in with something similar, to the effect that Jones said Villeneuve was the only one he respected; and then amazingly if we take past comments from Mark, that he later also said the same of Pironi.
Hells teeth someone at MS actually saying something positive about Pironi! Not before time either.
"Hall Of Fame" what puerile rubbish that is.
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