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Post by charleselan on Jan 4, 2018 18:23:06 GMT
May I say what a great post Rob with some superb observations and detail.
I don't think I had ever heard the Ron Dennis story regarding Jack's BT33 running dry before. Do we conclude that Ron always was a little tricky, even back then. I wonder what Brabham said to him?
The Brabham BT33 was a very good car and I think we have discussed previously on MS that had Jochen taken the decision of returning to Brabham in 1970 as was distinctly possible then he would have still been champion, and maybe still alive today (that is if was are not fatalists).
On the other hand as you so correctly point out if the Ferrari 312B had been more reliable early season than Jacky Ickx would have been World Champion, and in my opinion a very worthy one too. Sadly far too many people forget just how good a F1 driver Jacky was at that time, and remember him post 1974. His time at Lotus seemed to have changed him, and I recall reading that he became very concerned about the integrity of the Lotus cars. It can't have been about bravery as he excelled on the real drivers circuits, and resigned from the GPDA at the time of JYS' campaign for safer circuits.
I think that you have also made a good point about the reliability factor as well. It did add so much to the race, as we all wondered if a car or bike would hold together. So many races were lost through mechanical failures, some induced by overly aggressive driving, and some not so. It was part of the game and often defined a really great driver who could nurse an ailing car; none more so the Jimmy Clark.
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Post by robmarsh on Jan 5, 2018 7:56:38 GMT
Thanks Charles for the compliments. Legend has it that Jack said to Ron or in words to that effect of "Don't bother to change it back Ron I know what you did". For many years RD did not like people to know that he was a mechanic. Strange really. WRT to Jackie Ickx there was a weekly magazine in the UK back in the early 70s called Motor. They had a beautiful colour spread of the 1969 season in one of their late 1969 editions as well as predictions of the world champions for the next five or ten years starting in 1970. I do remember though that it went Rindt, Stewart then Ickx, Ickx, Ickx, Ickx. As you say Jacky Ickx was a very talented driver and very true to himself. I never got the impression he was happy at Lotus, I can't see him gelling with Chapman, who would have appeared as a wide boy. His performance in the rain at Brands Hatch in 1974 proved his skill and bravery though.
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Post by charleselan on Jan 5, 2018 12:37:37 GMT
I don't think that anyone could fathom out Ron Dennis for he is a very complex character, with untold amounts of chip on his shoulders. You would think that anyone who worked their way up from being a mechanic to the status he held would be proud of the fact, but no, it doesn't appear to fit in with this image he likes to portray of himself today. I do remember "Motor" magazine, it was a long standing publication that dated back years. Interesting point about their 1969 predictions for the future, and not too far fetched when you consider how things were shaping up by the end of 1969. Jacky Ickx was a very urbane gentleman, well read and very interested in all manner of cultural matters. I read an article on him way back in the early 1970's in which the journalist visited him in his then home in Brussels. Apparently there was no trace of motor sport related items to be seen, just beautiful furniture and paintings etc. With regard to wet weather driving he was second to none, absolutely astonishingly good, all of which he puts down to being a motorcycle trials rider in his formative years, here is a photo of him in action.  |
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Post by chrisb on Jan 5, 2018 16:14:58 GMT
Rob and Sir JC, may I also extend my compliments to your excellent posts [that's not to say others aren't excellent it is just these are more excellent...]
Ickx in 1967 was sheer magic, that little F2 car at the Nurburgring was the 2nd best in the field to begin with and early 1968 he was mortified that he took Jimmy out at Barcelona, and apparently the only photo memorabilia he keeps is a signed photo of Jimmy, now that really does say something about the guy, When you see him in 1970 I actually think he was at his peak then and save for yet another unnecessary tragedy we could have been witness to a fantastic finale, but i think after Monza 1970 the drive went out of Ickx and he lost that edge he had, until 1974 of course, I did see him drive the Ligier [78?] and it just wasn't the same - I saw him often in the Endurance Porsche's and he was so special
I also remember the Motor magazine and have a few copies in the attic, one is a special edition which without looking was when some years after he retired Jackie drove several F1 cars and he was pretty impressive - I think a few team bosses offered him a contract,
the point about reliability is well made, how many championships would Stirling have won given today's reliability? or Jimmy - certainly 2 more - but it made it just a bit more exciting, and funny enough I was reading something and - oh it was Gordon Murray - when he was asked who he would have loved to work with and much to my surprise he said Jimmy, for his ability to jump and adapt from one car to the next, also his mechanical sympathy aka 1965 British GP
Ron Denis a bit like Greta Garbo, without the looks or personality, an enigma wrapped up in an enigma,
Sir JC, at first glance I thought the above picture of Ickx was Marquez
this sounds like a good possible thread, wet-weather drivers, who were they?
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Post by charleselan on Jan 5, 2018 16:29:07 GMT
Sir JC, at first glance I thought the above picture of Ickx was Marquez this sounds like a good possible thread, wet-weather drivers, who were they? Goodness me Chris you are spot on there, the similarity is astonishing! Great topic for a thread by the way, who is going to kick it off? |
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Post by René on Jan 5, 2018 18:01:32 GMT
Great post on Ickx! And he really does look like Marc Márquez in that picture, amazing!
Jacky always had this deeper layer, a well educated man with a broader field of interest than only racing. I remember seeing an interview with Jacky a few years back on Belgian Canvas channel (a channel with sports but also culture and good films). The interview was at his home and there was a lot of art in that room and it was mainly African art. The interviewer asked about it and Jacky told with great enthusiasm how he was captivated by the African continent and its people and culture the first time he went there for Paris-Dakar. He was very sincere about this and it was by no means colonial in any way. He was really fascinated by Africa and knew a lot about it. Interesting man and a fantastic driver.
I saw him in 1979 at Zandvoort in the Ligier. As Chris said he was no longer the magic F1 driver he once was but I still was happy to see Ickx in an F1 race!
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Post by charleselan on Jan 5, 2018 18:23:48 GMT
Great post on Ickx! And he really does look like Marc Márquez in that picture, amazing! Jacky always had this deeper layer, a well educated man with a broader field of interest than only racing. I remember seeing an interview with Jacky a few years back on Belgian Canvas channel (a channel with sports but also culture and good films). The interview was at his home and there was a lot of art in that room and it was mainly African art. The interviewer asked about it and Jacky told with great enthusiasm how he was captivated by the African continent and its people and culture the first time he went there for Paris-Dakar. He was very sincere about this and it was by no means colonial in any way. He was really fascinated by Africa and knew a lot about it. Interesting man and a fantastic driver. I saw him in 1979 at Zandvoort in the Ligier. As Chris said he was no longer the magic F1 driver he once was but I still was happy to see Ickx in an F1 race! René I believe that his current wife/partner is African and the African continent interest being related to his Paris Dakar Rally raid career is understandable with such an educated and learned man. For me Jacky Ickx is one of the all time greats, and one of the most versatile as well; how many can claim to be teenage motorcycle trials stars; F3/F2 Champions; Grand prix winners and title runners up; multiple Le Mans winner (and when it was far more difficult to achieve that due to reliability issues) and Paris Dakar Rally raid winner. Astonishing driver. I remember the Ligier year and it was for me sad to see as he obviously hated the ground effect era of that period, a bit like Patrese and the active ride Williams. Jacky was stunning at the wheel of the Ferrari B2 in 1972 which people seem to forget, his demolition of the field at the Nurburgring that year was something to behold. Also he put in some very strong drives in the B3 in 1973 when it wasn't a good car. I also recall that he produced some seriously good drives in the Ensign until he had that huge crash at Watkins Glen that badly broke his leg. Hughes and Co would have you believe that he wasn't in the same class as Chris Amon, forgetting of course that he was very young and raw when teamed with Chris in 1968, I had top remind him of that fact a while back  . I was a great Amon fan myself, but Jacky was far better in the rain even considering the often quoted tyre disparity that one hears about in the UK media. |
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Post by Carl on Jan 5, 2018 21:33:55 GMT
Sir JC, at first glance I thought the above picture of Ickx was Marquez this sounds like a good possible thread, wet-weather drivers, who were they? Goodness me Chris you are spot on there, the similarity is astonishing! Great topic for a thread by the way, who is going to kick it off? John Charles, You, Rob and Chris already have with your excellent observations about Jacky Ickx, who was always called the Regenmeister in Road & Track by more than one Formula One correspondent. I also remember Motor and have a token few in storage, with which the problem is that what's in storage is seldom taken out and enjoyed. Cheers, Carl |
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Post by René on Jan 6, 2018 0:25:30 GMT
I think Jacky Ickx was very much at home at Ferrari in the early seventies. He got to drive many wonderful and diverse cars. First of all the Formula 1 cars of which the 312B and B2 were both very competitive but also the sport prototypes for the endurance races. The magnificent 512S in different specifications, the experimental 512M and of course the superior 312PB cars. This variation fitted Jacky like a glove and he really excelled in so many races. And he jelled in really well with the Italians, they still think of him with affection.  1973 was a disappointing season and eventually saw the end of his Ferrari years but he will always be one of the great Ferrari drivers. Ah well, he also became one of the great Porsche drivers. Not bad!   © Scuderia Ferrari SpA |
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. I was a great Amon fan myself, but Jacky was far better in the rain even considering the often quoted tyre disparity that one hears about in the UK media.
