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Post by mikael on Dec 23, 2017 3:30:27 GMT
An F1 news item may no be worthy of a new thread; but this news item got my attention:
In describing how Red Bull convinced Max Verstappen and his management team to sign a new three year contract, Helmut Marko said the following:
"We shared with him our plans for the future, guaranteeing that by 2020 we will have the best people and good options for the engine.
"We went to the Honda base in Sakura and the infrastructure is incredible. This convinced him."
Maybe it's obvious (of course it is - and maybe I have missed earlier news) - in whatever way, it is the first time I have seen stated so explicitly that Red Bull is aiming at becoming the Honda factory team - once the engine works.
Source: www.grandprix.com/ns/ns37978.html
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Post by chrisb on Dec 23, 2017 8:55:48 GMT
well in one respect that may make sense - if Honda can establish itself as a front-running engine, Red Bull and Renault haven't exactly been the best of buddies, so it makes sense they look elsewhere, Torro Rosso get the engine working and then it goes to RB, and they get a lot of money to do so and it is relatively exclusive -
my problem is that whilst Honda motorcycles consistently produce exceptional engines, Honda F1 doesn't always , going back to 1964/5 that transverse 1.5ltr V12, amazing engineering but one victory, the 3ltr V12 1 [lucky] victory, the water cooled V8 3 ltrs, tragic,
ok then you had the golden period of Honda F1, with that amazing turbo engine and then the V12 in the Mclaren, but after that? mind you that was some golden period wasn't it?
interesting topic Mikael
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Post by René on Dec 23, 2017 11:56:25 GMT
Of course this is worthy of a new thread Mikael. I have read it too and it is interesting, albeit quite obvious for a while.
Red Bull's reasoning will be the same as McLaren's; we need an exclusive works engine deal to fight for championships. We have the driver, we know how to build the chassis, we only need a good engine.
If Red Bull can make it work with the Japanese remains to be seen. Patience wasn't their strongest asset in the Renault marriage. But on the other hand, having a B team to slowly get used to each other and iron out all the possible issues and weaknesses is a much better platform to work from.
It's a well known fact the Honda infrastructure and engineering is top class, but getting the result is just as much a matter of people management. Having the right people on the right position doing the right things. Remember when Niki Lauda visited Maranello and Fiorano for the first time in the winter of '73? He couldn't understand why they were not World Champion every year given their amazing facilities and infrastructure. There was obviously some work to do first to actually make it all work.
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Post by mikael on Dec 30, 2017 6:00:36 GMT
Came across these old commercials, with special F-1 editions of the Honda Civic, to commemorate the great successes in F1 (limited editions, only 400 cars). Still some work to do (for Honda) before something like this is again feasible ...   |
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Post by René on Dec 30, 2017 17:15:53 GMT
Those are great ads, love that stuff! Well, for Honda to make credible advertisements like this again they only need to do one thing: start WINNING!  |
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Post by charleselan on Dec 30, 2017 19:53:10 GMT
That is a great Ad Mikael and very typical of the time and of Japanese work of that nature.
The little Honda CRX was a wonderful sporty car with a truly glorious little motor. It also spawned a very good one make series in the UK and one of the top drivers in that series was none other than the younger brother of my very first motocross hero mentioned in the Off Road Thread.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2018 7:41:31 GMT
I saw on Motor Sport that Red Bull and Honda have started formal talks about a power unit deal, possibly as soon as next year.
That would look like a brave call at this stage, they've finally got a competitive car, after four years of struggling.
Would they be prepared to take that risk, and a high chance that they consign themselves to another season or two of an uncompetitive power unit?
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Post by René on May 3, 2018 15:45:32 GMT
I saw on Motor Sport that Red Bull and Honda have started formal talks about a power unit deal, possibly as soon as next year. That would look like a brave call at this stage, they've finally got a competitive car, after four years of struggling. Would they be prepared to take that risk, and a high chance that they consign themselves to another season or two of an uncompetitive power unit? A risk indeed. But do they really have a choice? As long as there is no other big manufacturer (like Porsche or BMW) that can deliver the goods and wants to commit to Red Bull, they have nowhere to go. Either stay at Renault or take the deep plunge. |
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Post by chrisb on May 3, 2018 19:56:57 GMT
well RB seems to me have never made any secret of their feelings towards Renault - it always felt a union of convenience rather than a happy union, and i like their thinking around using Torro Rosso to try it out, ok it works than we have 4 cars who can take the world on, so it makes sense to me, and given the fact I think engineering wise Honda have a pretty good history it would a god bet and if it works what would McLaren say?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2018 22:51:54 GMT
I saw on Motor Sport that Red Bull and Honda have started formal talks about a power unit deal, possibly as soon as next year. That would look like a brave call at this stage, they've finally got a competitive car, after four years of struggling. Would they be prepared to take that risk, and a high chance that they consign themselves to another season or two of an uncompetitive power unit? A risk indeed. But do they really have a choice? As long as there is no other big manufacturer (like Porsche or BMW) that can deliver the goods and wants to commit to Red Bull, they have nowhere to go. Either stay at Renault or take the deep plunge. The thinking in F1 has always been you need to be the engine /power unit suppliers main team if you're going to be able to win championships. So sticking with Renault isn't a long term solution for RBR (or McLaren), but for RBR when do you jump? McLaren were faced with the same dilemma with Mercedes, and jumped too early to Honda. Those 3 years with Honda have nearly destroyed McLaren. RBR have deeper pockets, but zero tolerance for under performing suppliers, or not being capable of winning races. I think with two seasons to go before the big 2021 changes, a relatively competitive Renault p.u, a Renault team that isn't competitive yet, and a car that can currently win races, they might stick with Renault p.u's a while longer, and see how Honda develop with Toro Rosso over a full season. However, my opinion is unlikely to be right as I thought McLaren wouldn't ditch Honda for a Renault p.u, As I thought; 1) Long term Honda would get them back to the front of the grid 2) Honda were paying McLaren enough to make the wait viable 3) A Renault p.u wouldn't be a performance or reliability improvement 4) Renault p.u wasn't a long term option for McLaren So, one out of four on that assessment. |
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Post by robmarsh on May 4, 2018 7:09:03 GMT
Jim I do think that RB and Honda may have been very clever in using Torro Rosso this year. It gives Honda much more time to get their engine right under far less pressure than they had with Mclaren who needed to get back to winning ways in a hurry. This was not helped by Alonso behaving badly. With TR there are no prima donna drivers requesting immediate results and the car is not expected to win so Honda can spend more time getting the engine reliable before addressing the power issue. Also TR seem to understand the Japanese culture better than Mclaren does under Zack and Alonso. In the late 80s early 90s Honda were on their sixth different engine variation by September. Obviously with the current restriction on number of engines they won't be able to do that so easily so I expect a lot of grid penalties for TR come the second half of the season. This season gives Honda the breathing space they need and by the end of the year their engine will be a lot more competitive. Remember how successful that first Honda power unit was in 1983 and they ran it in a Spirit first before going to Williams.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 11:22:25 GMT
Jim I do think that RB and Honda may have been very clever in using Torro Rosso this year. It gives Honda much more time to get their engine right under far less pressure than they had with Mclaren who needed to get back to winning ways in a hurry. This was not helped by Alonso behaving badly. With TR there are no prima donna drivers requesting immediate results and the car is not expected to win so Honda can spend more time getting the engine reliable before addressing the power issue. Also TR seem to understand the Japanese culture better than Mclaren does under Zack and Alonso. In the late 80s early 90s Honda were on their sixth different engine variation by September. Obviously with the current restriction on number of engines they won't be able to do that so easily so I expect a lot of grid penalties for TR come the second half of the season. This season gives Honda the breathing space they need and by the end of the year their engine will be a lot more competitive. Remember how successful that first Honda power unit was in 1983 and they ran it in a Spirit first before going to Williams. Hi Rob, like you, I'm still hopeful that Honda will perfect their power unit and be giving the Mercedes and Ferrari p.u teams a hard time. I've also still got a lot of affection for Honda, from their earlier successes in F1, and everything they've done in motorbike racing. The thing I should have mentioned, is that the article said that Red Bull have to announce their p.u supplier by 15th May. So pretty early to be making that call, for next season - unless Honda have very convincing evidence of their development path. |
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