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Post by robmarsh on Sept 1, 2024 15:52:35 GMT
Brilliant, loved it and Ferrari ran a race on a better strategy, quite a turnaround.
On the streamliner vs the open wheeled Mercedes Fangio said that the streamliner was a problem on any track which had lots of corners. Monza and Rheims in those days only had about four corners. Even at a circuit like Silverstone was in the 50's, the bodywork masked the front wheels and made placing the cars in the corners very difficult. Fangio finished the 1954 British GP with dents all over the bodywork from hitting the barrels which marked the corners.
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Post by mikael on Sept 1, 2024 15:58:38 GMT
It would be wonderful if this is something we will see more often: to use just the smallest of the possible/feasible number of pitstops and then to "nurse" the car to the checkered flag first.
Really nice to see parity/balance between a good number of teams now. (And of course, the more Red Bull is absent from the podium the more interesting everything is.)
Just a little "statistics", whatever it may be worth. Over the last 5 races, Verstappen has scored 66 points (13.2 points per race in average), while Norris has scored 83 point (16.6 points per race in average). In the championship, Verstappen leads Norris by 62 points, with 8 races remaining. So, in order to win the championship, Norris needs to score, in average, 7.75 points more than Verstappen per race. So as things stand, it still looks quite safe for Verstappen ...
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Post by René on Sept 1, 2024 16:47:02 GMT
It would be wonderful if this is something we will see more often: to use just the smallest of the possible/feasible number of pitstops and then to "nurse" the car to the checkered flag first.
Really nice to see parity/balance between a good number of teams now. (And of course, the more Red Bull is absent from the podium the more interesting everything is.)
Just a little "statistics", whatever it may be worth. Over the last 5 races, Verstappen has scored 66 points (13.2 points per race in average), while Norris has scored 83 point (16.6 points per race in average). In the championship, Verstappen leads Norris by 62 points, with 8 races remaining. So, in order to win the championship, Norris needs to score, in average, 7.75 points more than Verstappen per race. So as things stand, it still looks quite safe for Verstappen ...
I know not everyone is fan of teamorders but, for Lando to have at least a small chance to win the title, teamorders are the only sensible thing to do. I know what Ferrari or Mercedes would have done. Every point counts and you may never be in this position again. |
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Post by René on Sept 1, 2024 16:52:16 GMT
Brilliant, loved it and Ferrari ran a race on a better strategy, quite a turnaround. It was fantastic, hey Rob.  What a win and indeed by strategy but also brilliant driving from Charles. Most other drivers said their tyres were dead at the end so it was a masterclass from Leclerc. Also brilliant was Vasseur’s move to change Charles’s race engineer earlier this season. It just works better but someone had to make that choice for Charles. And that’s Fred’s job. Now on to another possible Ferrari win at the Circuit of the Americas! The start is in 9 minutes.  |
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Post by mikael on Sept 1, 2024 17:28:31 GMT
I know not everyone is fan of teamorders but, for Lando to have at least a small chance to win the title, teamorders are the only sensible thing to do. I know what Ferrari or Mercedes would have done. Every point counts and you may never be in this position again.
Yes, it is as if McLaren don't quite believe in that Norris could possibly do it; and somehow, they're happier if Piastri wins. Brilliant driving by Leclerc, for sure   (<-- and great smileys!!) |
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Post by Carl on Sept 1, 2024 23:30:23 GMT
I had my usual early dreadful apprehensions...
...when McLaren instructed Norris: "Box to overtake Leclerc" Next year they may allow passing in park ferme...
...when Verstappen asked: "If it's possible to defend, can I race?" Asking politely is how to get a treat
Late in the race when total focus was essential, Leclerc rebelled: "Leave me alone on this!" I hope he's not suspended
The final laps were blessed with actual racing and Charles Leclerc was brilliant! Perfetto! -----------
Memories of 1970 came flooding back as the gate was opened and the crowds swarmed onto the straight. I sometimes wish those sultry women hadn't decided to chase me...before quickly changing my mind! |
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Post by Carl on Sept 2, 2024 2:25:21 GMT
It would be wonderful if this is something we will see more often: to use just the smallest of the possible/feasible number of pitstops and then to "nurse" the car to the checkered flag first.
Really nice to see parity/balance between a good number of teams now. (And of course, the more Red Bull is absent from the podium the more interesting everything is.)
I know not everyone is a fan of team orders, but for Lando to have at least a small chance to win the title, team orders are the only sensible thing to do. I know what Ferrari or Mercedes would have done. Every point counts and you may never be in this position again. The precarious balance between the two championships now tilts in favor of constructors. How can a driver's championship be valid when passes occur during carefully timed pitstops determined by software algorithm, when information available is so massive that only a computer can instruct when to conserve tyres or adjust brake bias? The constructors title dominates because team principals ceded control (to themselves) to elevate their importance and downgrade that of others. No wonder drivers sometimes act petulantly when treated like children. Before computer telemetry, when driving was done in the cockpit, most drivers understood that acting to benefit the team was also in their best interest and many did so on their own. That team spirit can be regained if the challenges of driving are returned and drivers are allowed the freedom to drive. |
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Post by Carl on Sept 2, 2024 2:49:18 GMT
Continuing with Monza in 1954; interesting that Monza at that time had some cobblestone-clad corners. I don't know what the purpose of using cobblestones was. They could have been used for their durability. But it could also have been for reducing the friction between tyres and road on purpose (although this seems somewhat unlikely). In whatever way, it must have been "great fun" in the rain!
Thinking about it, this could surely be an interesting way of "spicing up" modern Grand Prix racing: to have sections with special asphalt where the friction is very low. (Cobblestones would most likely not be accepted nowadays.) This would provide real opportunities for the brave - and the real talented.
Rouen had a cobblestone hairpin I always thought was very cool...
F2 at Rouen  |
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Post by robmarsh on Sept 2, 2024 8:00:25 GMT
"I know not everyone is fan of teamorders but, for Lando to have at least a small chance to win the title, teamorders are the only sensible thing to do. I know what Ferrari or Mercedes would have done. Every point counts and you may never be in this position again."
From my perspective the stupid idea of "They are free to race" only applies when:
1. A team has such dominance or points lead over the other teams that victory in the WDC and WCC are just about beyond doubt.
2. They are so off the pace they are not going to win anything anyway.
This they are free to race worked well for Mclaren in 1984, 1985, 1988, 1989, and never since. In all the other seasons they did not really have a big enough advantage or else one driver was clearly better than his teammate eg Prost vs Johansson, Senna vs Berger.
In instances when the championships are not beyond doubt then team orders should apply to make sure the team has the best chance of winning one or both of the championships. Examples of where team orders were not applied and possible championships were lost are:
1974 Ferrari with Lauda and Reggazoni
1981 Williams with Jones and Reuteman
1982 Renault with Prost and Arnoux
1982 Ferrari with Villeneuve and Pironi
1983 Ferrari with Tambay and Arnoux. Twice Arnoux carved Tambay up like Piastri did to Norris.
1986 Williams with Piquet and Mansell
2007 McLaren with Alonso and Hamilton
2010 Ferrari with Alonso and Massa
Since then one team has had a such a dominance that free to race worked.
Examples of where team orders did work to secure a championship that was close are:
1973 Tyrrell with Stewart and Cevert. JYS remarked on a few occassions where he won that Francois was faster but stayed behind.
1978 Lotus with Andretti and Peterson even to the extent of filling Ronnie's car to the brim during practice/qualifying to try and make him slower than Mario.
1979 Ferrari with Scheckter and Villeneuve
Sometimes like with Ferrari during the Schumacher years team orders were applied unnecessarily. Prior to the mid 70s drivers were more polite, cars and circuits more dangerous and apart from the odd instance team orders were virtually unheard of because drivers were not so selfish and mature enough to look at the bigger picture.
Whereas Piastri may be a brilliant driver and a future world champion I don't like him. His treatment of Alpine and the the instances with Lando show him to be utterly selfish and not a team player. Maybe it has something to do with Mark Webber who is still smarting over multi21 Seb or "Aussie Grit" where they use sandpaper to shine a cricket ball.
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Post by mikael on Sept 2, 2024 16:05:24 GMT
Apparently, many are now wondering about McLaren's strategy - or lack of same. Here are a number of interesting thoughts:
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Post by robmarsh on Sept 2, 2024 17:13:17 GMT
Good article. Time for Piastri and Webber to pick up their ball and play somewhere else.
Lando has always been a team player and an honorable man as well. I would rather play it Lando's way, it is better for the soul and in the mirror every morning.
Trust me I have been in a place where I did things in business that I became deeply ashamed of because it was in direct opposition to my core values, to the point of being physically sick. I went back to basics and stopped those practices and left the firm I was a partner in. I ended up losing all my retirement savings for the first 13 years of my life but I could look myself in the mirror. Personally I would rather be considered soft yet honorable than a hard arse. It is actually harder to do and takes more courage.
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Post by René on Sept 2, 2024 17:43:04 GMT
Personally I would rather be considered soft yet honorable than a hard arse. It is actually harder to do and takes more courage. Definitely Rob. |
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Post by René on Sept 2, 2024 17:47:23 GMT
Apparently, many are now wondering about McLaren's strategy - or lack of same. Here are a number of interesting thoughts: It's just silly not to put all cards on Lando. He has a slim chance to win the title so he needs all the points. And as I said earlier, you never know of you get another chance like this, you just don't know. Maybe the McLaren is a dog next year. You can't blame Oscar I believe. As long as he is told he's free to race, then he will race and try to win races because he doesn't know either if he has a competitive car next season. So Zak should tell him to stay behind Lando. |
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Post by Carl on Sept 2, 2024 18:59:28 GMT
I would rather see drivers racing each other than a team puppet show. I know positions are exchanged and second drivers sometimes block and prevent faster rivals from racing the number one driver. These are common team strategies that reveal the importance of constructors, like the neighborhood kid whose ball it is making the rules.
How often are past constructor championships talked about? The focus more often is the World Driving Championship, and even those results are sometimes tainted by manipulation. Senna and Schumacher obeyed their own rules.
One way to see Formula One is that the WDC is secondary and the drivers pieces on a chessboard, the number ones therefore scandalously all Queens! It's good for the sport that no team can afford many sacrificial pawns.
Drivers race while teams contrive. The final laps in Monza were so exciting because the teams were helpless to interfere.
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Post by Carl on Sept 2, 2024 19:01:11 GMT
Good article. Time for Piastri and Webber to pick up their ball and play somewhere else. Lando has always been a team player and an honorable man as well. I would rather play it Lando's way, it is better for the soul and in the mirror every morning. Trust me I have been in a place where I did things in business that I became deeply ashamed of because it was in direct opposition to my core values, to the point of being physically sick. I went back to basics and stopped those practices and left the firm I was a partner in. I ended up losing all my retirement savings for the first 13 years of my life but I could look myself in the mirror. Personally I would rather be considered soft yet honorable than a hard arse. It is actually harder to do and takes more courage. Well done, Rob! |
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What a win and indeed by strategy but also brilliant driving from Charles. Most other drivers said their tyres were dead at the end so it was a masterclass from Leclerc. 
(<-- and great smileys!!)
