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Post by Carl on Sept 21, 2018 17:21:26 GMT
Fame often involves a false assumption of otherworldly greatness welcomed by weak egos of the famous and encouraged by press/public relations staff in order to maximize celebrity value. If Clark Gable liked onions on his cheeseburgers, it was publicized and that choice was venerated by young women in diners everywhere. I don't give a damn about anyone's private life. The concept of celebrity elevates some and makes fools of those who swallow the nonsense. I am not impressed by wonderful acts done in front of cameras, intended for the most part not to inform but to deceive. All public relations is artificial and has no real meaning. It is how someone reacts under extraordinary pressure that shows character. At those times, character either measures up or reveals weakness dependent on false fronts and PR bullshit.
Formula One has become a massive bullshit machine. Let's see if Liberty does anything to change that. Most likely they'll fail but their public relations department will announce great success.
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Post by Carl on Sept 21, 2018 18:15:09 GMT
Here's another well-reasoned MS comment by Bill in Sydney, who may soon need an agent, responding to severe criticism of Andrew Frankel's article about Lewis Hamilton, whose character is rancorously debated and on whose epaulettes the future of goodness may rest.  ---------------
motorsportmagazine.com F1 Opinion by Andrew Frankel, September 17th 2018 Bill in Sydney > DR "I don't agree. To say that the author is 'disgusting' and 'racist' is unconscionable and downright unfair. The article is nothing of the sort - in fact, quite the contrary. Frankel is all praise and admiration! Grow up, Kay and DR, and read it again. It's an opinion piece and it's a timely one as my favourite driver powers toward his fifth title. Hamilton's public petulance and inelegant behaviour is well-known and disappointing and he lets himself down when he slips into it - jumping to conclude that Frankel is 'racist' for expressing an opinion and calling Hamilton out is not only nasty but borderline dumb. Check the look of wonder on that karting kid's face in the clip I posted above/below - how Lewis Hamilton behaves in public MATTERS because thousands of kids like him look up to Lewis and watch his every move. It's something he needs to be made aware of and it's something he needs to cut right out. It's unbecoming and not reflective of the real Lewis, in my opinion." ---------------
His comment goes on to discuss the state of race relations in Australia and that is not included here. Cheers, Carl Thanks for posting this Carl, very interesting to read and good for Bill as that site badly needs more like him, men with balance. I have always had time for Bill as his comments are always excellent even if he sometimes gets caught up in some flippancy that can detract from his main points. It actually prompted me go onto MS and read the feature and comments, Jeez some of the cr*p written on there is disgusting and just shows how ill educated and lacking in knowledge most of those fools are. I am not a big fan of Frankel but the article was sound and well reasoned and expressed his values which were dismissed by those that disagree as racist. By implication then I must be, as I share the same values. In actual fact I couldn't care less if the subject was "sky blue pink", it matters not a jot to me, but sportsmanship; decorum; honour and respect do. If I am happy to openly criticise a close relative for poor public speaking (see MotoGP post), then i am entitled to do so of anyone else, as those are my values and those that I would wish to apply to any offspring. In closing, how the blazes did that pr*ck DR know that you were Carl? Cheers JC John Charles, Thank you. It's good to hear your viewpoint, always well-founded. He went back into the Motor Sport archives to previous Andrew Frankel articles where my username has been changed but in the replies to my previous comments my old username appeared. He is one those simpleminded fools who imagines he's quite clever and seems to believe I am bothered by his discovery. I couldn't care less. I despise the social media driven combination of ignorance and arrogance today. Like-minded imbeciles are the ones who voted for Trump and Brexit and few things infuriate more than being forced to go along with the stupidity of others. Kind regards, Carl |
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Post by chrisb on Sept 21, 2018 20:54:39 GMT
chaps, excellent, as I seemed to have forgotten my password for disquiet I have not been encouraged to join in or get a reminder as to what it is, but I do continue to read some of the reactions to articles and one further example is about an article Mat did on Dovi and his engineer but the 2nd comment was a sneering misinformed piece of stupidity that Mat kindly shot down, but the responses to Andrew's article was downright pathetic, anyway -
Carl, I seem to remember the King Gable was responsible for the massive reduction in sales in vests when he disrobed in 'It happened one night' with the gorgeous Claudette - wonderful film
with regards to Bill, having gotten my tickets for next years ashes this week, I'm happy but aside from that he does make some sense and does lend gravitas to some of the misinformed comments
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 1:07:47 GMT
What a lovely, Anglo-Saxon, white - and private - forum this is.
It seems the man can't do anything right. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 2:08:12 GMT
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Post by robmarsh on Sept 22, 2018 7:35:45 GMT
I like Bill's last response to Davido. Back in the day when I first followed sport and then motor sport my like or dislike of the sports person was largely based on what they did and how they did it. One didn't hear about their private lives much and in any case I wasn't interested in that stuff and still aren't. Unless of course the person was a rapist or crook. I was only interested in what was written in the race reports or articles around race reports and only from magazines whose views I respected.
In later years one got to see the drivers in your living room so to speak during after race interviews and you observe them more closely than when reading about them. This "interaction" allows you a closer scrutiny of the person and may change the way you view them. Biographies do the same.
I was a great supporter of Hamilton when he first started racing but got put off by a couple of things in his post race interviews. One was when he mentioned that he had a bright yellow helmet because if he went off the track and got lost in the bushes the rescue teams could find him. Firstly that is why Lauda used a bright red helmet back in the early 70s and applied to the old Nurburgring. This fact is recorded in Lauda's first book published in 1976/77. Secondly by the time Hamilton was racing I don't think there were very many bushes anywhere near the race track. This to me was lying especially when it came out later that the helmet was that colour because he idolised Senna. The second fact was that he always appeared in post race interviews in an immaculate race suit that looked like it had just come from the dry cleaners and contrasted with Alonso's sweat stained suit. Again this didn't ring true with me and I suspected a lack of sincerity and trying to show Alonso up by playing on Ron Dennis's obsession with cleanliness and order. What ever my upbringing has done in shaping me it still makes it me and to me the things Hamilton does in public lack true sincerity and I dislike insincerity immensely. This is why despite his immense skill I cannot really warm to him and believe me I have tried to every year since he started. Jacques Villeneuve was another who I tried to warm to and couldn't.
I guess we all like or dislike people for various reasons and our personal values and upbringing obviously impacts on this. I for one would prefer not to know what the drivers get up to when not at the circuit but modern society seems to revell in it and the sports people play along with their endless tweets about themselves. Everybody would be better off without that information.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 10:35:35 GMT
As far as I am concerned I have never followed Hamilton. After some inkling last year thanks to Mr Vettel, I have only taken serious notice this year when everybody – me included – was expecting a very good Ferrari driven by no less than a four-times world champion to (finally) come on top. From there I went to look back with a bit more of detail. As I always say, I really have not been following it closely. All the previous refers to the track. Off track I can’t comment, as I don't watch TV and don't read gossip magazines. However they all have their own PR story to sell, not just Hamilton.
That is all very well Rob - upbringing and values - but if after six or more decades the “opinion” stays the same, the risk is that it might have become prejudice, and therefore doesn’t show intelligence as the quality of a person. It also hints that hypocrisy is lurking not far behind.
As for my own values, I can only quote one of the very few people I listen to when he talks, Pope Francis: “Who am I to judge?”
My grandmother, pious and devout yet a worldly woman, who brought me up, would recognize that.
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Post by René on Sept 23, 2018 11:29:09 GMT
I have read the article of Andrew Frankel and all the comments on MS and on here and for me personally, it raises one question: "why?". It also leaves a feeling of unease to be really honest.
Why does Mr. Frankel feel the need, for the second time in two years, to share his dislike of Lewis Hamilton 'the person' with us? Does he believe that Lewis will read his critisism and think to himself "maybe Andrew is right so I'll change my ways"? Mr. Frankel, and most of the posters who care to comment, all make sure they aknowledge the fact that Lewis is a very good racing driver and really don't care what a person does in his personal life or what he looks like, but..... there's always a but when it comes to Lewis.
Lewis Hamilton is a man who lives his own life the way he wants to live it. He doesn't need to be like someone else's ideal image of what he should be. He is who he is, like it or not. The only thing Lewis 'needs' to do as a Mercedes employee, is to race as fast and good as he possibly can and that is exactly what he does.
I didn't like it when Lewis (and Mercedes) accused Ferrari of cheating after the British Grand Prix. I thought it was childish and disrespectful when Lewis was snapchatting during a press conference or sprayed champagne all over a hostess lady on the Chinese GP podium a few years back. He doesn't always express himself in the most sensible manner and some of his actions and behavior make it difficult to warm to him, I agree.
But he is not the only racing driver (or champion for that matter) who behaved badly on occasions. Vettel's outburst and swearing to Whiting at the Mexican Grand Prix or ramming his car into Lewis's Merc in Baku were very bad behavior. Alonso's first stint at McLaren or the Singapore '08 events are even worse than that. Michael Schumacher had a few on-track actions that were not exactly very sportsman like and the same goes for Ayrton Senna. Nelson Piquet calling Senna gay was pure childish and calling Mansell's wife ugly was rude and disrespectful. Not much honour and decorum there to be honest. None of these things Lewis can ever be accused of. And there are more examples.
I do feel Lewis often gets closer scrutiny than others, present and past. And you tell me why that is.
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Post by Carl on Sept 23, 2018 16:29:20 GMT
Michael Schumacher had the tremendous assistance of Ross Brawn, without whose superb organizational intelligence the team would not have been so compliant. I think Sebastian Vettel needs a Ross Brawn more than a driving mentor. The greatest professional athletes are extraordinarily rewarded, either for playing a game six months each year or otherwise having great fun doing what they'd love to do anyway. Some enjoy the fan and media attention, others shy away from it. Anyone at the very top will find having a private life challenging, but a small number consider media attention as a form of personal vindication. Like the starlets cavorting topless at Cannes, those who crave attention will get it. If someone can actually deliver the goods, that attention can be sustained for years.
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Post by Carl on Sept 23, 2018 18:29:17 GMT
Rene, Bill in Sydney, an ardent Hamilton fan, posted this comment in answer to those who were condemning Andrew Frankel. "I don't agree. To say that the author is 'disgusting' and 'racist' is unconscionable and downright unfair. The article is nothing of the sort - in fact, quite the contrary. Frankel is all praise and admiration! Grow up, Kay and DR, and read it again. It's an opinion piece and it's a timely one as my favourite driver powers toward his fifth title. Hamilton's public petulance and inelegant behaviour is well-known and disappointing and he lets himself down when he slips into it - jumping to conclude that Frankel is 'racist' for expressing an opinion and calling Hamilton out is not only nasty but borderline dumb. Check the look of wonder on that karting kid's face in the clip I posted above/below - how Lewis Hamilton behaves in public MATTERS because thousands of kids like him look up to Lewis and watch his every move. It's something he needs to be made aware of and it's something he needs to cut right out. It's unbecoming and not reflective of the real Lewis, in my opinion." -----------------
Frankel attempted to explore the antipathy toward Hamilton, including his own, and did not mean to add fresh fuel to the fire. He may not have understood how exceedingly clear this had to be. Cheers, Carl |
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Post by René on Sept 23, 2018 22:27:44 GMT
Carl, I am afraid I don't agree with you on this one. I think you give Mr. Frankel way too much credit. I found his article shallow and meaningless and not Motorsport worthy to be honest. I had the same feeling two years ago when he wrote the same piece in other wordings but with the same underlying frustration. I am not saying one cannot have criticism on Hamilton, of course you can. But if so, then dig deeper, try to explain or ask the right questions. Frankel does non of that in my view. And for the record, I have no issues with Bill in Sydney. On the contrary, his comments are often very good and he has a sense of humour. A possible candidate for our forum? Bill in Sydney > Davido: "Yes, and this is probably a message for Frankel. Does Hamilton’s ‘persona’ really matter? Not when his driving is as good as it is!" |
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Post by Carl on Sept 24, 2018 3:40:51 GMT
Rene, Bill in Sydney would be an excellent candidate, on that we agree...  I will always be dubious when criticism is instantly condemned by anyone's supporters, in any category, a clear indication that truth has been bent over and assaulted. The current partisan divides engendered by the warp speed of social media are worse than in the past. (apologies to Jefferson Airplane)
"When the truth is found
To be lies
And all the joy
Within you dies
Don't you want somebody to blame?"
Somebody to Love* by Darby Slick, Grace Slick's brother-in-law
*a word has been changed Remarkably, the two social intersections where character counts least are where it should matter most, politics and sport. What's the truth about Babe Ruth? He gorged on hot dogs and whores/he was the Sultan of Swat and king of penicillin. Everybody loved him. Cheers, Carl |
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Post by Carl on Sept 24, 2018 4:12:38 GMT
Carl, I am afraid I don't agree with you on this one. I think you give Mr. Frankel way too much credit. I found his article shallow and meaningless and not Motorsport worthy to be honest. I had the same feeling two years ago when he wrote the same piece in other wordings but with the same underlying frustration. I am not saying one cannot have criticism on Hamilton, of course you can. But if so, then dig deeper, try to explain or ask the right questions. Frankel does non of that in my view. Rene, These two excerpted paragraphs from Andrew Frankel's opinion of September 17 form its central point:
"I didn’t watch the Singapore Grand Prix because I was driving back from Spa on Sunday, but I did listen to every minute of it and I had already seen ‘that’ qualifying lap. And it occurred to me that not only is Hamilton better than Vettel, or anyone else out there; he might be better than anyone I’ve seen race. Because Senna and Schumacher were probably as talented, worked as hard and had the same steely focus, but both were vulnerable under pressure. You can say the same about Vettel, yet Lewis never cracks. Alain Prost was arguably the most clinically accomplished driver out there, but he wasn’t a racer like Lewis." "The point is, Hamilton is the perfect package: he is a proper racer in the Stirling Moss and Gilles Villeneuve sense, insofar as he’ll fight as hard for 14th place as first. He never gives up unless the situation is hopeless, yet he can see the long view and understands the risk/reward ratio better than anyone else I’ve seen. He hardly ever makes mistakes and when he does, he minimises their consequences. Too many times I’ve seen him get away with something, which would probably be disastrous for others, for it to be luck."
To me, that sounds entirely positive and highly complimentary.
On the subject of compliments, have you heard about your young countryman, Rinus van Kalmthout (aka Rinus Veekay), this year's Pro Mazda champion?
Cheers, Carl
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Post by robmarsh on Sept 24, 2018 6:48:37 GMT
I think Bill would be an excellent candidate and I think he was a bit sad we did not invite him initially. He mentioned it in one of his posts. I have had some good exchanges with Bill in the past and never rude even if we did not agree. Bill actually spent some time with Lewis Hamilton a way back, more time than Andrew Frankel seems to have, and Bill told me that he is a really nice guy. Just like people said of Schumacher and Senna. Like those two Hamilton has the ability to polarise race fans.
I have learnt a lot from the discussions on Lewis on this forum with Lucio's message from the Pope, "Who am I to judge" being the strongest. I guess none of us know the pressure the modern sports stars are under and being in the public eye the whole time must sometimes squeeze the niceness out of people. I know after a pressured week at work in a fairly high profile job, I was like a bear with a sore head come Friday evening and the pressure is nothing like these guys have. We often refer to Jim Clark and others of that era and how they behaved but I don't think they had the social media pressure these guys do, especially Hamilton and Vettel at the present. I also think Lewis, more than any other current driver, is trying to produce a Lewis Hamilton brand that will transcend motor racing. Maybe he sees himself as a role model, especially for underprivileged kids and that is why he tries so hard. Like Bill in Sydney and Frankel have said, it can be galling at times.
I think there is more right than wrong with Lewis Hamilton so I am going to do what I used to do and sit back and enjoy a master driver in action. However, he is still the "enemy" in terms of my support for Ferrari.
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Post by mikael on Sept 24, 2018 8:54:35 GMT
We often refer to Jim Clark and others of that era and how they behaved but I don't think they had the social media pressure these guys do, especially Hamilton and Vettel at the present.
So true! In the car, during the race, they're basically "on air" constantly; at any rate, any angry outburst is sure to be transmitted on TV. Then, coming into the parc ferme - with the adrenaline still pumping in the veins - they (the drivers) can hardly get the helmet off before they have a microphone under their nose. And in the waiting room for the podium - a place that could (ought to) be private, they're "on air" again. It's like a "reality show"! Of course they get handsomely paid for being available all the time, but still ...
Another thing, in order to succeed as a racing driver, I think to have a (short) temper is actually essential! And for some, it takes a bit longer to cool down than for others - it can't be helped.
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