Heroes and Villains

[René]

Sept 24, 2018 4:12:38 GMT Carl said:

Sept 23, 2018 22:27:44 GMT René said:

Carl, I am afraid I don't agree with you on this one. I think you give Mr. Frankel way too much credit. I found his article shallow and meaningless and not Motorsport worthy to be honest. I had the same feeling two years ago when he wrote the same piece in other wordings but with the same underlying frustration.

I am not saying one cannot have criticism on Hamilton, of course you can. But if so, then dig deeper, try to explain or ask the right questions. Frankel does non of that in my view.

Rene,

           These two excerpted paragraphs from Andrew Frankel's opinion of September 17 form its central point:

"I didn’t watch the Singapore Grand Prix because I was driving back from Spa on Sunday, but I did listen to every minute of it and I had already seen ‘that’ qualifying lap. And it occurred to me that not only is Hamilton better than Vettel, or anyone else out there; he might be better than anyone I’ve seen race. Because Senna and Schumacher were probably as talented, worked as hard and had the same steely focus, but both were vulnerable under pressure. You can say the same about Vettel, yet Lewis never cracks. Alain Prost was arguably the most clinically accomplished driver out there, but he wasn’t a racer like Lewis."

"The point is, Hamilton is the perfect package: he is a proper racer in the Stirling Moss and Gilles Villeneuve sense, insofar as he’ll fight as hard for 14th place as first. He never gives up unless the situation is hopeless, yet he can see the long view and understands the risk/reward ratio better than anyone else I’ve seen. He hardly ever makes mistakes and when he does, he minimises their consequences. Too many times I’ve seen him get away with something, which would probably be disastrous for others, for it to be luck."

To me, that sounds entirely positive and highly complimentary.

On the subject of compliments, have you heard about your young countryman, Rinus van Kalmthout (aka Rinus Veekay), this year's Pro Mazda champion?   

      Cheers, Carl

Carl, there is no lack of praise for Hamilton the driver. That is not the point. The point is also not that someone criticizes Hamilton. Lewis has given enough reasons to be critical about.

The point is that it often feels like Lewis is being judged in a different way than others. And when someone like Frankel finds it necessary to write about his dislike for Hamilton, not once but twice in Motorsport Magazine, this adds to this feeling. There is no real substance in his opinion pieces, it's only dislike of the person. But apparently important enough for Frankel to write about it.

I agree that lashing out at Frankel like some did is way over the top and doesn't lead to anything. But I do understand the feeling of unease that many have.

Just imagine if it was Lewis who had screamed at Whiting and called him names like Seb did? Just imagine if Lewis had said what Max said earlier this year in a press conference, that he would "give the next person who asked him about his difficult season a head butt"? Lewis's head would have been on the chopping block instantly!

___

Of course I know Rinus Veekay! A very talented young man and maybe we have a new Arie Luyendyk in the making! I know Arie gives advice to Rinus regularly. Would be really cool if Rinus could make it to Indycars. 

[charleselan]

As with everything that involves human nature, we all have our opinions, rightly or wrongly, and that is the way it is.

I have expressed my own and do not feel the need to reinforce that view with multiple posts. My values have been imbued in me since childhood and as the decades pass I do not believe that to continue with them displays any hint of hypocrisy. To be a hypocrite one has to expect standards of others that you do not apply to ones self, and I do not believe that I would ever countenance that.

What Lewis Hamilton does with his life, or how he looks, is not an issue for me in the slightest. In fact all power to the guy as he does not hurt anyone and is getting the maximum enjoyment out of all that he chooses to do, something we all attempt to do in our lives.

However I do not like people who do not tell the truth; I dislike with intensity those that show immature petulance and self righteousness, and those that belittle others. I also do not appreciate those with huge wealth that circumvent UK tax laws. All these points are apparent in the person from this discussion, and if one wishes to see them, or not then that is your choice.

Yes I agree that todays sports people are under an intense media spotlight, however the competitors in motorsport of past decades had far more pressure upon them for one simple reason; and that being the fact that they did not know if they would celebrate at race end, or go home in a wooden box. You don't get any more pressure than that.

Andrew Frankel's point was that when he first came into contact with Lewis Hamilton he was a charming and delightful young man. He now feels that the outward persona displayed by Lewis very often appears to be the opposite, and that he (Frankel) is not enamoured by the fact. What is wrong or offensive in expressing that opinion ? The only ones likely to get offended are the myopic fanatics who have no clear understanding of a balanced view, and who are only too willing to cast ill-educated critique of any other competitor who should have the temerity to challenge their own hero. This last sentence is aimed at members of forums such as MS etc, and not members of RRT.

The suggestion from a post above that one should re-evaluate ones own view of life, to fit in with contemporary times is somewhat novel. If we take that to an extreme then are we to expect that in 100 years time people will be looking at Adolf Hitler as a great leader of the German people. Long held values are as important as any reassessment, in fact it is the erosion of values that is the crux of many ills in society today.

[Deleted]

Sept 24, 2018 8:54:35 GMT mikael said:

Sept 24, 2018 6:48:37 GMT robmarsh said:

We often refer to Jim Clark and others of that era and how they behaved but I don't think they had the social media pressure these guys do, especially Hamilton and Vettel at the present.

So true! In the car, during the race, they're basically "on air" constantly; at any rate, any angry outburst is sure to be transmitted on TV. Then, coming into the parc ferme - with the adrenaline still pumping in the veins - they (the drivers) can hardly get the helmet off before they have a microphone under their nose. And in the waiting room for the podium - a place that could (ought to) be private, they're "on air" again. It's like a "reality show"! Of course they get handsomely paid for being available all the time, but still ... 

Another thing, in order to succeed as a racing driver, I think to have a (short) temper is actually essential! And for some, it takes a bit longer to cool down than for others - it can't be helped.

Mikael, you know how much esteem I have for you, only I have to kindly disagree on that last period. I know what you mean, sort of like a fighter aircraft which is at its most effective if it's intrinsically unstable, when it come to its qualities of flight mechanics (airworthiness), the capability to turn literally on its feet, so to speak.

But short temper in sport, especially motorsport, leads nowhere. As soon as I read that I thought of De Cesaris (and immediately after, of Alesi) who famously was arguing with a backmarker while leading at Long Beach, and got shot by coolness himself, Herr Andreas Nikolaus.

[Deleted]

This piece is from a motorsport engineer, Dallara's US business leader (won't quote the name, so they won't find it in google searches). Found this piece inside a thick car engineering book I downloaded just yesterday. [with some slight English editing from yours truly]

Motor racing is heavily constrained by money and time required to design, build, and develop a car ready for the race events.
Winning in motor racing requires not only to exploit, to the very maximum extent, the rules that define tires, transmission, engine, and aerodynamics but also to achieve the most efficient driver/vehicle combination for the actual race conditions.
In every motor racing series, the driver/vehicle system operates under stressful conditions where the overall performance is affected by decisions taken before and during the events, usually with insufficient time or data: In fact, motor racing occurs within a poorly controllable environment (ambient and track surface conditions, traffic situations), and the final result depends on the interaction between the driver and the vehicle, on how well physically trained the driver is to sustain the various and prolonged physical efforts, and how mentally strong the driver is to consistently control the vehicle.
…
The racing driver is a very important factor in the overall performance.
In order to achieve the highest performance of the vehicle/driver system, it is crucial to optimize the seat position, the easy access to all controls (gearshift, steering, throttle and brake pedals, switches, etc.), and the feedback from the steering wheel and the disturbances from the environment (front, rear, and side visibility, windscreen and helmet buffeting, etc.).
Two professional race drivers, driving the same chassis and the same engine for the same team, typically achieve a lap time performance within 0.2 s from each other over a 100 s lap time, so we can realize how efficient and repeatable machines the professional racing drivers are inasmuch as their performances are repeatable within 99.8%.
Racing, above all, is a mental sport.
Psychology and character affect the driver performance over the course of a season and are the deciding factors for a professional racing driver to become a race winner or, ultimately, a champion.
It can be relatively easy to win some races, but it is not easy to be consistently fast and bear the stress raised by the competitors as well as the technical and sporting challenges.
The professional racing driver is generally young, 8–14 years old in karting to 25–30 years old in single-seater Formulas like F3 to F1, and a vast majority of the professional racing drivers had to interrupt, rather prematurely, attending school in order to race.
The young age and the sometimes incomplete scholastic experience can make a driver reluctant to deeply learn some important technical aspects of the racing car and to stand criticisms, comments, and judgments or even to discriminate between true or false technical information.
Finally, in order to be successful, the professional racing driver has to have a very strong self-achievement motivation, sometimes even at the expense of his or her teammate or of all the people working in the same racing team.
Since the VDMR (Vehicle Dynamics for Motor Racing) expert has to continuously deal with the interaction between driver and car, it is important for the VDMR expert to work together with the driver psychologist or the personal trainer, if available. In more general terms, the VDMR expert has to understand, properly value, and eventually influence the working relationships inside the racing team in order to let the driver become a mature, conscious, consistent, and reliable performer.
Steady-state situations like steering pads or manoeuvers in prolonged constant radius corners do require a well-defined steering wheel angle to maintain the car in equilibrium at the maximum available speed and, therefore, do not depend much on the driver’s ability. Non steady-state manoeuvers - and racing is all about handling non-steady-state manoeuvers - require the driver to apply his or her controls (brakes, throttle, steering, gearshift), to judge on the car reactions, and sometimes to further finely adjust his or her inputs in a never-ending process. Driver models are, therefore, very important to perform any type of race car simulations to the extent that it becomes difficult to discriminate between the car and the driver performance because the car and the driver are essentially a single symbiotic system.
Driving a race car, professionally and consistently, requires dedicated training and continuous race track practice, which are available at specialized racing schools.
The race driver has some characteristics in common with the aircraft pilot, like terminology, safety procedures, debrief, and even clothing and apparel, but there are some differences: A race car simulator is a luxury limited to the biggest Formula 1 teams and not available to the general driver; the racing driver has a rather short span and a generally limited technical preparation. Also, race driving is an individual sport, and there is no opportunity or reason why professional test drivers might develop the car for other racing drivers.
Racing is quite similar to a duel between multiple fighter pilots: the drivers and the pilots have to get ready for the race or the mission, properly determined in their mind to overcome at any cost the opponents.
Racing drivers and fighter pilots have to preserve their rationale up to the point that to win a race or to survive a fighter duel, they cannot hate their competitor or enemy as this irrational feeling absorbs mental energy and makes them focus too much on the details and finally lose their spatial perception of the global environment and the time-ordered hierarchy of their actions and reactions.
To be a successful race driver or an excellent fighter pilot, it is necessary to psychologically stress the competitors, to make them lose their concentration, and finally, to make a mistake.
It is very instructive, at the end of a race, to watch the drivers leave their cars: those who are able to show a calm attitude, to cheer to the fans, and to their competitors have greater chances to win than nervous drivers who lost their temper because of a racing accident or simply because everything did not go as desired.

[chrisb]

fascinating posts, full of wonderful words and different perspectives, no wonder I enjoy this forum so much and lament the demise of the quality of responses of the MS forum. Bonedwarf was one I used to enjoy reading his perspectives and felt he always came across as knowledgeable and insightful, but he was another who dropped out when disquiet took over and allowed decorum to be spelt differently.

Orwell's vision was spot-on, as I am also starting to fear Animal Farm is also a prophecy and a foretaste of what may happen with this ridiculous divorce from our European friends.

Jimmy was notoriously prickly if he was misquoted or yet another Fleet-street journalist asked him about the tragedy at Monza, Graham was unapproachable at times and many a fan or journalist received a tongue-lashing if they chose the wrong moment, and yet at their respective peaks the fan base was huge, so without the access to media and awareness they were under constant attention and Jimmy having to live in Paris as quite rightly he felt paying 90% income tax for, as you so elegantly describe John, champagne or a wooden box - he quite rightly adjudged he had to live overseas to make his Russian Roulette financially worthwhile.

What Lewis and the comedians, politicians and successful businesspeople are doing is legal tax-avoidance. is that different? I would suggest so, but then anyone who buys from Amazon or similar are actually supporting this legal tax-avoidance - I have no answer to that, other than to suggest all Governments from all countries work together to get at least 20% tax from these people.

I am reminded of Jack Nicholson's assertion that 'you [we] can't handle the truth' but there are ways of avoiding having to speak the truth if it offends or a situation needs resolving first, what I like in Motor-bikes is that most folks actually say they can't answer that yet and that is cool, In my work I am 'used' to people not telling the truth - because in the main they have to build up that level of trust in order to tell the truth, why others do it remains open to conjecture, perhaps it is mainly fear with mere mortals and I guess top sportsman won't because they are worried of the consequences,

What I don't like and I share your sentiments on this John is this petulance and blame culture, what Lewis said of Kimi at Silverstone was pathetic, can you imagine Fangio or Ascari saying that? Or Graham who quite rightly had the right to say it after Mexico 1964 but instead sent Lorenzo some driving lessons, what class that was, however seething Graham may have been or disappointed he rose above it. That is my problem with Lewis. Jorge is similar as he always seemed to say it was another's fault never his own. 

sadly, John, the last paragraph seems to be making more of a statement in today's world with the rise of the right and extremism.

[chrisb]

great post Lucio!

[Deleted]

RE Orwell. Re-read last week, found the new Penguin paperback edition at Kinokuniya (Japanese chain, best bookshop in KL), The Lion and the Unicorn, written “to the tune of the German bombs” in 1941. His insight of the English character is as sharp and relevant in 2018 as it was then; even more, in fact.

[mikael]

Sept 24, 2018 14:27:04 GMT @lucio said:

Sept 24, 2018 8:54:35 GMT mikael said:

So true! In the car, during the race, they're basically "on air" constantly; at any rate, any angry outburst is sure to be transmitted on TV. Then, coming into the parc ferme - with the adrenaline still pumping in the veins - they (the drivers) can hardly get the helmet off before they have a microphone under their nose. And in the waiting room for the podium - a place that could (ought to) be private, they're "on air" again. It's like a "reality show"! Of course they get handsomely paid for being available all the time, but still ... 

Another thing, in order to succeed as a racing driver, I think to have a (short) temper is actually essential! And for some, it takes a bit longer to cool down than for others - it can't be helped.

Mikael, you know how much esteem I have for you, only I have to kindly disagree on that last period. I know what you mean, sort of like a fighter aircraft which is at its most effective if it's intrinsically unstable, when it come to its qualities of flight mechanics (airworthiness), the capability to turn literally on its feet, so to speak.

But short temper in sport, especially motorsport, leads nowhere. As soon as I read that I thought of De Cesaris (and immediately after, of Alesi) who famously was arguing with a backmarker while leading at Long Beach, and got shot by coolness himself, Herr Andreas Nikolaus.

Lucio, the neutrally stable fighter aircraft is a good example. Yes, I didn't mean an uncontrolled rage, but just a "healthy" dose of well-controlled anger.

Denis Jenkinson discusses this in his "The Racing Driver" (1958), in the chapter that deal with his concept of "tiger" (which, as I understand it, means ... something like ... the ability to "shadow" the guy in front, even when being in an inferior car, and to put pressure on him and wait until he makes a mistake - and then go past). On pp. 80-81 (in the 1997 reissue) he writes,

     "You can say, if you like, that "tiger" is the reaction to bad temper, or that loss of temper stimulates a driver into "tigering", and it may be so, for there is no doubt at all that bad temper will make most drivers and riders try that little bit harder. It is not exactly a question of bad temper as one normally knows it in the human being, where he tends to lose his reason, for then his nervous system is over-stimulated so that one or more of the normal faculties become a bit out of focus. Drivers who are in a raging temper so that they are very red in the face usually lose their keen sense of judgment, or their vision becomes a bit blurred, but on the other hand they are often capable of concentrating all their forces into one action, which is why they can smash doors with their bare fists, or in a mechanical activity break spanners and bolts with ease. This sort of bad temper would be useless for a racing driver and such a person would not live long, but a mild degree of this loss of temper is a good thing and if the driver's natural reaction is to concentrate his energies on one thing, and that thing is driving, then you see "tiger".  "

Not to say that "Jenks" is fully right, but what he writes here sounds very plausible to me.

[chrisb]

It is no secret we like it when a top racing driver goes into 'Tiger mode' Fangio Germany 1957, Jimmy Holland 1966 and Monza 1967, Jochen Monaco 1970, Ronnie so often, Jackie 1971 Monza, Niki Monaco 1978, Gilles any number, Mansell 1987 Silverstone, etc, so many examples but the difference as Jenks suggests is reasoned anger as opposed to petulance or loss of control, when that anger drives you to take someone else out or injure yourself, the difference with all the above and today is the likelihood of survival

[Carl]

Sept 25, 2018 4:24:17 GMT mikael said:

I didn't mean an uncontrolled rage, but just a "healthy" dose of well-controlled anger.

Denis Jenkinson discusses this in his "The Racing Driver" (1958), in the chapter that deal with his concept of "tiger" (which, as I understand it, means ... something like ... the ability to "shadow" the guy in front, even when being in an inferior car, and to put pressure on him and wait until he makes a mistake - and then go past). On pp. 80-81 (in the 1997 reissue) he writes,

     "You can say, if you like, that "tiger" is the reaction to bad temper, or that loss of temper stimulates a driver into "tigering", and it may be so, for there is no doubt at all that bad temper will make most drivers and riders try that little bit harder. It is not exactly a question of bad temper as one normally knows it in the human being, where he tends to lose his reason, for then his nervous system is over-stimulated so that one or more of the normal faculties become a bit out of focus. Drivers who are in a raging temper so that they are very red in the face usually lose their keen sense of judgment, or their vision becomes a bit blurred, but on the other hand they are often capable of concentrating all their forces into one action, which is why they can smash doors with their bare fists, or in a mechanical activity break spanners and bolts with ease. This sort of bad temper would be useless for a racing driver and such a person would not live long, but a mild degree of this loss of temper is a good thing and if the driver's natural reaction is to concentrate his energies on one thing, and that thing is driving, then you see "tiger".  "

Not to say that "Jenks" is fully right, but what he writes here sounds very plausible to me.

Mikael,

             I agree that a certain amount of temper is essential.  A racing driver must believe the driver ahead has usurped what is his.  Taking it is more easily accomplished with the adrenaline anger provides.  A degree of anger sharpens the mind. 

"As long as I've got a chance to beat you I'm going to take it."

"Nice guys finish last." 

                                            -both quotes by baseball legend Leo Durocher

Cheers, Carl (never nice)

[mikael]

When talking about the temper of racing drivers ...
In Japan there has recently been a number of cases of "power harassment". (I believe "power harassment" is a word coined here in Japan; but it means "abuse of power".)  Several elite sportsmen (sports persons) have recently accused their coaches of treating them too harshly , and have arranged large press conferences, broadcast on TV etc., to say, "I have been subjected to power harassment". Recently a very young female Olympic wrestler accused her 70-year old coach (a former Olympic winner) of power harassment. In this case, as well as in others too,  I felt really sorry for the coach that was forced to resign, and not so much for the so-called victim. As with my claim regarding top racing drivers, I believe that most elite sportsmen have a tendency to "bad temper" (to use Jenks' wording). Thus for those who want to be trained at elite level, it should be no surprise that he "tone" may be harsh.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2018 4:24:17 GMT mikael said:

Denis Jenkinson discusses this in his "The Racing Driver" (1958), in the chapter that deal with his concept of "tiger" (which, as I understand it, means ... something like ... the ability to "shadow" the guy in front, even when being in an inferior car, and to put pressure on him and wait until he makes a mistake - and then go past). On pp. 80-81 (in the 1997 reissue) he writes,

     "You can say, if you like, that "tiger" is the reaction to bad temper, or that loss of temper stimulates a driver into "tigering", and it may be so, for there is no doubt at all that bad temper will make most drivers and riders try that little bit harder. It is not exactly a question of bad temper as one normally knows it in the human being, where he tends to lose his reason, for then his nervous system is over-stimulated so that one or more of the normal faculties become a bit out of focus. Drivers who are in a raging temper so that they are very red in the face usually lose their keen sense of judgment, or their vision becomes a bit blurred, but on the other hand they are often capable of concentrating all their forces into one action, which is why they can smash doors with their bare fists, or in a mechanical activity break spanners and bolts with ease. This sort of bad temper would be useless for a racing driver and such a person would not live long, but a mild degree of this loss of temper is a good thing and if the driver's natural reaction is to concentrate his energies on one thing, and that thing is driving, then you see "tiger".  "

Not to say that "Jenks" is fully right, but what he writes here sounds very plausible to me.

I see what you mean. It almost reads as if Jenks was surprised drivers had a competitive edge.


This instead is a great, perceptive piece by what increasingly looks like (naturally to my limited knowledge) the best motorsport journalist currently anywhere.

www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/motogp/motogp-gentlemanly-or-full-vicious-passions

It is about that competitive edge (all-absorbing, as unsurprisingly it turns out), delusions of fairness and chivalry, through a cultured reference to Orwell – ahem… talk about great minds think… cough!... never mind . It can also be read as the thinking man’s reply to Frankel’s shallow piece. One may change “Lorenzo” with “Hamilton” and the moral of the story would be the same.

Some top racers are like this. Their brains get clouded by red mist, so they are only capable of seeing things from their own point of view. Strength can come from this perspective, because any self-doubt, any nagging feeling that you’re not right can be a real chink in a racer’s psyche. As Mick Doohan’s faithful crew chief Jeremy Burgess used to say of the five-time world champion: “Mick is always right, even when he’s wrong.”

Orwell didn’t only write serious books about war, society and humanity; he also wrote for newspapers. While he was preparing to write 1984 at the end of the Second World War he published a story, headlined The Sporting Spirit, about a series of football games played by the British against a visiting Russian team.

He wrote that sport is 'an unfailing cause of ill-will', 'much bad feeling', full of 'vicious passions' and that 'if you wanted to add to the vast fund of ill-will existing in the world at this moment, you could hardly do it better than by a series of football matches.'

Orwell didn’t only have it in for the players, who would stop at nothing to win, he also noted that 'the spectators work themselves into furies over these absurd contests'.

The most famous line from this story goes thus: 'serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence: in other words it is war minus the shooting'.

…

Motorcycle racing isn’t a gentleman’s sport. But is any kind of professional sport gentlemanly? Not really.

…

Of course, sport is supposed to be a good thing – teaching people to be better people on the racetrack or on the football pitch can help them become better people in the real world. But this is more relevant to grassroots sport than to the corporate behemoth of professional sport.

…

Until recently, Lorenzo’s no99 logo featured a halo and a pair of devil’s horns. This neatly summed up his psyche, and indeed the psyche of most racers. The 31-year-old has long been keen on meditation as a way of staying calm and focused, so he’s caught between being Buddha and Beelzebub.

[Deleted]

Sept 26, 2018 6:28:13 GMT mikael said:

When talking about the temper of racing drivers ...
In Japan there has recently been a number of cases of "power harassment". (I believe "power harassment" is a word coined here in Japan; but it means "abuse of power".)  Several elite sportsmen (sports persons) have recently accused their coaches of treating them too harshly , and have arranged large press conferences, broadcast on TV etc., to say, "I have been subjected to power harassment". Recently a very young female Olympic wrestler accused her 70-year old coach (a former Olympic winner) of power harassment. In this case, as well as in others too,  I felt really sorry for the coach that was forced to resign, and not so much for the so-called victim. As with my claim regarding top racing drivers, I believe that most elite sportsmen have a tendency to "bad temper" (to use Jenks' wording). Thus for those who want to be trained at elite level, it should be no surprise that he "tone" may be harsh.

This guy, reviled all over the place like a multiple murderer has never endured - Hamilton in comparison is a shrinking violet – never complained for his first coach (his father) tough love:


www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2018/sep/24/tiger-woods-earl-pga-tour

[mikael]

Interesting article, thank you Lucio. Good that Tiger was capable of seeing below the hard surface.

[chrisb]

Mikael, that is just dreadful, honestly what is all this about? or more importantly, where will it go? there is a sense that 'we want it too easy' so many instant pop stars or actors, or motor racers who aren't prepared to put in the effort to equal the reward and want success on a plate, a soft plate at that, but that appalls me Mikael, and worries me at the same time, as someone who is involved in education it just makes me feel so war already a sense of humour is banned - what next?