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Post by Carl on Jun 3, 2023 21:26:48 GMT
When one design is very dominant, Formula One can resemble a spec series as other teams come as close as they can to duplication. The constructors championship is a contest among designers that seldom results in balanced competition and often provides great advantage to some drivers and others with little chance.
The balance should favor driving skill.
That's true Carl, but the only way to fix that is to make F1 a spec series. And that's not F1. When Jim Clark drove away from everyone in the Lotus and won by two minutes, that was not talked about either. It was just the way it was. In fact, the field is now much closer than it used to be, but if no more cars break, the one who is 2 tenths faster per lap wins. Mon ami René, While there were no complaints about Jim Clark being fastest, he was talked about in hushed tones of reverence by those drivers resigned to second place at best if the Lotus had no problems. In 1976, as you know, Gilles Villeneuve decisively beat several top F1 drivers in Formula Atlantic at Trois-Rivières. No-one suggested he may have had an unfair advantage. Experienced drivers know who among them is naturally fast and whether they are made fast by the car.
The following is quoted from Motorsport Magazine (August 3, 2017)
"The 1976 North American Formula Atlantic season belonged to one man. A young Gilles Villeneuve was on a run of six consecutive race victories when teams arrived in Trois-Rivières to contest the crux race of the season, the 11th running of the Grand Prix Molson Trois-Rivières. In fact, against the cream of North American talent including Bobby Rahal, Tom Klausler and Bill Brack, Villeneuve had only been defeated once that year and he wouldn’t be beaten again.
Known as the ’round the houses’ race, the Grand Prix was the climax of North America’s toughest race series: the Player’s Challenge Series and IMSA Formula Atlantic. Race organisers had invited a large contingent from the other side of the Atlantic to add meat to an already strong entry, meaning young hotshot Gilles was up against unprecedented quality. Against the man heading for that year’s F1 world championship, even, James Hunt, so too future F1 champion Alan Jones and defending Trois-Rivières winner Vittorio Brambilla. Lengthening the Québecois’s odds further, Gilles’s car was handling poorly after a practice crash at St Jovite while Hunt was given a brand new chassis.
It was therefore quite a shock to Hunt, expecting a fight amongst his F1 rivals, when Gilles lapped half a second faster than him in practice, before finding even more pace to claim pole position. The race unfolded in a similar vein: Villeneuve opened up a 10-second lead at the start and cruised home to a comfortable victory ahead of Jones and Hunt."
Red Bull drivers had a speed advantage of 30 kph in Baku on the long straight because the artificial drag reduction system just works better for them. We can agree that Adrian Newey is a genius aerodynamicist, but so great an advantage by artificial means degrades competition and demeans the sport.
At our proposed reunion, you may find yourself sharing a room at Siebkens Resort with the Hawaiian Tropic Girls chaperone. None who make it to breakfast ever talk about the ordeal 
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Post by René on Jun 4, 2023 10:25:19 GMT
One of the closest finishes in F1 history! You don't need a zillion overtakes to make a race a thriller. With DRS, this would not have been possible. |
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Post by René on Jun 4, 2023 10:56:07 GMT
That's true Carl, but the only way to fix that is to make F1 a spec series. And that's not F1. When Jim Clark drove away from everyone in the Lotus and won by two minutes, that was not talked about either. It was just the way it was. In fact, the field is now much closer than it used to be, but if no more cars break, the one who is 2 tenths faster per lap wins. Mon ami René, While there were no complaints about Jim Clark being fastest, he was talked about in hushed tones of reverence by those drivers resigned to second place at best if the Lotus had no problems. In 1976, as you know, Gilles Villeneuve decisively beat several top F1 drivers in Formula Atlantic at Trois-Rivières. No-one suggested he may have had an unfair advantage. Experienced drivers know who among them is naturally fast and whether they are made fast by the car.
The following is quoted from Motorsport Magazine (August 3, 2017)
"The 1976 ... ahead of Jones and Hunt."
Red Bull drivers had a speed advantage of 30 kph in Baku on the long straight because the artificial drag reduction system just works better for them. We can agree that Adrian Newey is a genius aerodynamicist, but so great an advantage by artificial means degrades competition and demeans the sport.
At our proposed reunion, you may find yourself sharing a room at Siebkens Resort with the Hawaiian Tropic Girls chaperone. None who make it to breakfast ever talk about the ordeal Carl my friend, great post!  Of course people talked about the brilliance of Jim Clark and later Gilles Villeneuve. People were in awe of so much talent and still are and they will continue to talk about it long after we are gone! What I meant to say was that F1 has always been like that when sometimes a driver or a team, but mostly a combination of, will dominate. Sometimes just one race and sometimes over a longer period of time. It's in the DNA of the sport. In the old days, it was not unusual for a driver to lap the entire field. I am sure that if F1 was a spec series we would, for most part, still see the same drivers winning the races and championships. Because they are the best drivers. But because F1 is not a spec series and some teams are better than other teams, the best drivers will end up in the best cars and sometimes their dominance gets exaggerated. I am convinced that when all F1 cars were equal, Max would still win races and be a title contender simply because he is that good. But now that he has a car that is so much better than the competition, he will probably have sealed the title before the summer break! If Lewis or Charles would also have a Red Bull, things would look different. But Horner will not allow that because that would create a real Senna-Prost intra team battle, in contrast to what Checo's dad claims we already have now... |
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Post by René on Jun 4, 2023 11:06:48 GMT
Enjoy the race! Vamos Carlos! And Charles will have a new rear end installed (in his car I mean ) so expect some fireworks from him also! Forza Ferrari!   |
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Post by mikael on Jun 4, 2023 11:57:16 GMT
Here's a very nice review (approx. 10 minutes of highlights), in good resolution, of that marvelous race!
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Post by René on Jun 4, 2023 12:22:21 GMT
It was an iconic race and a true masterclass from Gilles Villeneuve. A fantastic start from 7th position to p3 (Villeneuve's trademark). Then a great overtake on the outside on Reutemann on the second lap. And when you consider how difficult that Ferrari was to drive with a huge turbo lag and also see how many big names (Jones, Prost, Pironi, Piquet) make mistakes and go off, you can only agree with what Murray Walker says that this was absolutely brilliant. By the way, also pay attention to the man with the blue flag on the inside of turn 1! Hilarious.   |
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Post by mikael on Jun 4, 2023 12:52:14 GMT
By the way, also pay attention to the man with the blue flag on the inside of turn 1! Hilarious.
Yes, at 05:06 - a crazily dangerous place to stand! The safety of the marshals was not really a concern at that time!
But yes, also at other places in the video he's waving frantically at drivers in the lead group, thinking that some of them must be back-markers being lapped ...
No radio contact in those days; the signals were made through the intuition of the marshals, apparently.
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Post by René on Jun 4, 2023 17:50:19 GMT
Well, no fireworks from Ferrari! Congrats to Max with yet another dominant win. It looks so easy and you just know he can go even faster. Mercedes had a good race but still so far behind the winning Red Bull. Was Mercedes ever this dominant? Probably yes but I can't remember. Maybe 2014? George Russell was right; Red Bull will win all races.
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Post by mikael on Jun 5, 2023 16:55:11 GMT
I must admit that I didn't have the opportunity to watch the full race - I have only watched the summary/highlights, which is simply a cavalcade of (tame) DRS-assisted overtakes.
I browsed through some discussions on "the-race.com". I believe that one commenter hit the nail on its head by stating that, "... there were plenty of overtakes, but no battles". (Again I have to state/admit that my own judgement is based on the short "highlights" only.)
I understand that F1 is experimenting with DRS at some sprint races, by allowing its use already on the second lap. A much more interesting and useful experiment would be to "ban" the use of DRS entirely at those sprint races, to see if overtakes wouldn't be possible also without DRS assistance. That was, after all, the original goal with this generation of cars - if I am not mistaken. Or has it already been tried and found infeasible? (My guess is "no".)
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Post by René on Jun 5, 2023 21:06:24 GMT
You didn't miss anything Mikael. And indeed aptly stated that there was a lot of overtaking but no fighting over positions.
DRS is a disaster and the idea of the sprint race even more so. It should be abolished immediately, but if it should stay, perhaps as Martin Brundle suggested to limit its use to, for example, 60 seconds per driver per race. A bit like the push-to-pass in Indycar. But a complete switch to push-to-pass would be even better.
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Post by robmarsh on Jun 6, 2023 8:15:12 GMT
I think the real reason why Indy car is more competitive than F1 is that there is not so much money in Indycar, therefore that can't afford all these highly paid engineers that can analyse the rules to the nth degree and thus build a perfect car. The cost cap also prevents teams being able to spend money to catch up so once you have an advantage it is inbuilt for a number of seasons. Mercedes sandbagged from 2014 to 2020 so nobody would know how big their advantage really was and change the rules. Red Bull are doing same.
In addition the cars have so much performance in them that the tyres can't keep up and thus they are never driven at full pace for long so are super reliable. The last GP was the third race this season with no retirements and hardly any yellow flags, indicating everyone was circulating well within themselves. No jeopardy...boring as hell.
If you want decent racing but also a multimake championship that doesn't cost more than Europe's defence budget to run, then get rid of the engineers, the computer bandwidth, 290 of the three hundred sensors on each car, reduce the pit crews, ban simulators and make the cars smaller and shorter.
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Post by René on Jun 6, 2023 16:42:52 GMT
I agree with you Rob. Everything has gotten completely out of hand. An F1 pit box looks like the NASA space center not to mention the factories. Mercedes is planning a new complex with a gigantic university campus! Of course time cannot stand still and everything has become much more professional, but people have forgotten that they are racing teams. No more and no less. I'm afraid there's no going back.
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Post by Carl on Jun 6, 2023 18:37:25 GMT
Formula One is all marble and gilded mirrors, like the Palace of Versailles, never having wiped ecclestone's ass after being flooded with money. Indycar is closer to reality, but there's darkness at the end of the tunnel with new owner Roger Penske nearing ninety and dementia with billions to burn. Money and acid both corrode. Meanwhile, could the near silence of Formula E be part of a conspiracy to infiltrate the bank vaults without being noticed?
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