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Post by charleselan on Aug 1, 2018 21:09:18 GMT
Following on from the discussion about Agostini's helmet design I have searched out some interesting photos that i hope you chaps will enjoy. The comment I made earlier was off the top of my head, and believe me I was very pleased to learn that my recollections were correct.  Above photo of Ago on the factory Morini, circa 1964 and as i thought originally his helmet design was a copy go the great Mike Hailwood's in his early years. It was on this machine that Giacomo drew the attention of Count Augusta who always wanted am Italian WC on one of his machines.  Ago in action on the single cylinder 250cc Morini.  Above picture is of Tarquinio Provini on the factory 250cc Morini leading Jim Redman on the Honda "4" at Monza 1964. An amazing performance that year by Tarquinio taking on the works Honda's, riding a single cylinder machine. He left Morini and then rode for another Italian manufacturer Benelli.  Above is a rare shot of Mike hail wood riding the little 125cc Honda "5" during the Ultra Lightweight TT of 1966. An astonishing machine that Mike dwarfs as he was a quite a tall chap. Note the helmet design that was copied by Ago, before the Italian added the green and blue "blobs".  Here we have Mike on the 500cc MV Augusta "four", testing the machine. If you look closely you will notice the decal on the tank which was blue in colour and had the word "Privat" on it. At that time Count Augusta did not wish to have his team recognised as a works team, so they were supposedly run as a private entry. That was removed when Ago came on board.  A great portrait shot of this amazing rider, nicknamed "Mike the Bike".  I am sure everyone here knows about Mikes incredible come back at the IOM TT Races in 1978, 9 years after he last raced a motorcycle at that level, and with a badly damaged ankle which was smashed in his German Formula One GP accident of 1974. Mike won the F1 TT race on a Ducati twin, and in 1979 he returned for one last time and riding a factory 500cc GP Suzuki RG500 he won the Senior TT, and finished a close second to Alex George later in the week after a battle that was reminiscent to that of 1967 with Ago. In this photo of him on the Suzuki RG500 he is wearing a full face helmet with his old design beautifully recreated on the more modern dome. I have always fancied having one custom made for myself. |
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Post by Carl on Aug 1, 2018 22:13:13 GMT
I’m afraid not, Carl. We have lost the thrust we had during the reconstruction and subsequent economic boom, which was already spent by the mid Sixties. We have forgotten too soon how it was when we were hungry, and settled in our chairs instead to stand and carrying on running as previously. Some – many – left to make a difference for themselves, and for the countries which gave us hospitality. The old country became more and more sated. Nepotism – not merit – rife and the only way to progress. That is how a country goes down the drain. Anyways. Long story, alas long time foretold. Well said, Lucio, and a damn shame that good people are compelled to leave their own country to have a good career.
The idiot savants in Silicon Valley have proclaimed these times as the age of information. If they would uncork their heads, they could see how naive they are. This is the age of massive greed and corrupt crony capitalism worldwide, with some places blessedly spared and other places much worse. The obscene disgrace of governments organized to steal from those they are supposed to protect has become a trend, one modeled on syphilis.
Trump, described as a moron by his first Secretary of State and an idiot by his current chief of staff, is driving America into a toxic cesspool because he loves Russian oligarchs and hotel golden showers.
You know the causes and culprits in Italian government and business. Did Silvio Berlusconi play a role? It's just a damn shame that the tide against massive corruption hasn't yet turned.
Kind regards, Carl
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Post by Carl on Aug 1, 2018 22:19:56 GMT
Following on from the discussion about Agostini's helmet design I have searched out some interesting photos that i hope you chaps will enjoy. The comment I made earlier was off the top of my head, and believe me I was very pleased to learn that my recollections were correct. Ago in action on the single cylinder 250cc Morini. Here we have Mike on the 500cc MV Augusta "four", testing the machine. If you look closely you will notice the decal on the tank which was blue in colour and had the word "Privat" on it. At that time Count Augusta did not wish to have his team recognised as a works team, so they were supposedly run as a private entry. That was removed when Ago came on board. John Charles, Great photographs! Hailwood and Agostini each had only one equal.
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Post by mikael on Aug 2, 2018 1:58:27 GMT
JC, a very interesting read; thank you. I was not aware of the history/evolution of Agostini's helmet design. And Hailwood's colour combination, white and gold, with thin red lines to emphasize the golden part, was - and is - very beautiful indeed. Here are a couple of very good Agostini - Hailwood photos that I came across upon reading your interesting post.  From the Isle of Man TT 1967. Interesting that the TT counted as a round of the FIM Road Racing Grand Prix World Championship at that time.  A duel in Brno in the 350cc class. (I am not sure about the year but probably also 1967 or thereabout.) |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 4:03:32 GMT
Well said, Lucio, and a damn shame that good people are compelled to leave their own country to have a good career.
The idiot savants in Silicon Valley have proclaimed these times as the age of information. If they would uncork their heads, they could see how naive they are. This is the age of massive greed and corrupt crony capitalism worldwide, with some places blessedly spared and other places much worse. The obscene disgrace of governments organized to steal from those they are supposed to protect has become a trend, one modeled on syphilis.
Trump, described as a moron by his first Secretary of State and an idiot by his current chief of staff, is driving America into a toxic cesspool because he loves Russian oligarchs and hotel golden showers.
You know the causes and culprits in Italian government and business. Did Silvio Berlusconi play a role? It's just a damn shame that the tide against massive corruption hasn't yet turned.
Kind regards, Carl Berlusconi is very much part of the problem. It is yesterday's news that a young Italian mathematician has won the Fields Medal, effectively the Nobel prize for maths, only the second one in the history of the prize. The guy did all his studies in Italy, of course and as usual (among the very best universities in my book), but did all subsequent academic career abroad - Paris, Austin and currently at Zurich. He never tried in Italy and said he won't be going back any time soon. I know too well what he means. We have sold off the country, at every level. For example, Ducati. Previously it was owned by a Texan retirement fund (if I recall right - modern life is indeed strange). Now it's owned by the Germans of VW, I think. As long as the motorbike designers are Italians, in keeping with the technical tradition, I think we will forget for a moment that the chairman is the former head of BMW Motorrad. * Same for Ferrari (and Fiat). Only a matter of time before the Italian part will be fully excised. Who else, if not an Italian with no Italian ways at all, like Marchionne, would have bet the house on the Italian young engineers, when everybody was clamoring for them to take on board a "big name"? (there are no "big names", unless you believe the British press. Newey is the only suspect, although the under-performing Renault engines have become a convenient lighting rod in recent years) * The Germans of course can come and do shopping in Italy as they please. But when Pirelli tried to buy Continental or Fiat, Opel, the Chancellor duly vetoed. We can't complain if the country has no weight. It has a key, heavy geopolitics weight, but no political leadership, sustained over years and decades, to make it count for anything, in particular for its own citizens in the first place. Let's leave it here. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2018 4:07:11 GMT
Hailwood and Agostini each had only one equal.
Most sensible post. Picking them apart is meaningless. |
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Post by charleselan on Aug 2, 2018 7:58:16 GMT
Mikael,
Great photos of Ago & Mike. The upper shot is indeed from the 1967 IOM TT meeting, in the photo taken in the "winners circle" after the 350cc Junior TT race. Mike won on the incredible Honda "6" which was a very slightly enlarged version of the 250cc machine, if memory serves me correctly it had a displacement of 256cc.
Ago was on the beautiful MV "3" which had the most glorious engine note, just like it's big brother the 500cc model. I understand that Count Augusta himself played a major role in the design architecture of these three cylinder MV engines which replaced the old four cylinder "fire engines" that dated back to the early 1950's. These old "fours" still developed plenty of power but were big and heavy compared to the Honda "fours", and had become outclassed.
The three cylinder MV's gave Ago a huge amount of success, especially after the Japanese manufacturers withdrew from GP racing. Interestingly MV went back to four cylinder motors in the early 1970's when Yamaha and Suzuki returned to the large class with four cylinder two stroke machines.
Returning to the 1967 Junior TT race a very telling fact is that Mike Hailwood's winning average speed on the 256 Honda "six" was only one mile per hour slower than his Senior average on the brute of a machine the 500cc "4". The big 500cc Honda was a horrible machine which did not handle at all well; Mike actually commissioned a UK frame builder to make a frame for the bike, so bad was the original Honda chassis. However Honda refused to let him race it, Mike did get his way with the poor shocks after he reportedly threw a pair into a snake infested lake, they were replaced with another manufacturers of better pedigree.
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Post by charleselan on Aug 2, 2018 10:31:25 GMT
Mikael,
Further to the above, and the fact that I did not reply to the Isle Of Man suggestion put forward by you. The TT races at the IOM were very much part of the Grand prix calendar and were in many peoples eyes the Blue Ribbon event. However by the mid 1970's it was deemed by many GP riders like Barry Sheene to be too dangerous and was removed from the championship for ever.
Obviously there are differing opinions about this matter, but it is inescapable that the Island course is ultra challenging and dangerous. At that time there were many circuits that were equally so, and it is to Barry Sheene's credit that he challenged the organisers and authorities in much the same way that Jackie Stewart did with car racing. It was utterly disgusting how these race organisers treated motorcycle racers, and eventually they got their comeuppance thanks to Barry and Kenny Roberts' efforts and firm stance.
JC
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Post by mikael on Aug 2, 2018 11:44:47 GMT
JC,
thank you very much for taking time to discuss this fascinating era in Road Racing.
Regarding the photo from the '67 TT, I initially thought that the frontal number disks were yellow, and thus that it must be the 500cc class. But upon looking more carefully (after reading your post, where you told it was 350cc), one can see that the left side number disk on Ago's motorcycle is "darkish" (i.e. blue) with a white number. One can also see that the (white, probably) frontal number disk does not completely cover the blue one under it. So yes, you are right, it is certainly 350cc (just like the Brno GP photo).
When I was a child, in Denmark, everybody was referring to Road Racing simply as "TT". At that time I didn't think about it, of course, I just thought, "that's how it is". But later I found this a bit peculiar and wondered how it came about. Knowing now that the TT was a part of the Road Racing World Championship it starts to make much more sense.
Regarding the danger of the IOM TT, perhaps it was particularly dangerous on motorcycle with a two-stroke engine! I remember seeing a film with Barry Sheene at an American track (I think it was Daytona), where a piston seized at "full song" down the home straight. That resulted in a badly broken leg for him. (And he was probably lucky; it could have ended a lot worse ...) This was something that happened quite often with those high-strung two-stroke engines. (In karting too. My karting experience is not long, just one full season. But still, I recall that it happened in basically any race that someone had a piston seizure.)
A piston seizure basically always happens at "full song" - when fully "ringed out", down the straight. And I imagine it was something that was not uncommon at the TT, considering those very long straights, and considering for how long periods of time the engines run at full throttle there.
Mikael
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Post by charleselan on Aug 2, 2018 12:33:32 GMT
Mikael,
Really enjoying the discussion here, I have to say that this particular period is the one I most cherish. As a teenager at that time I could not get enough of all forms of car and bike racing and even more important it was a fantastic era for development and advancement of machines, so much more freedom than today.
My dad used to get the Motorcycle News weekly paper on his way home from work and i would sit and read it from front to back and then again over and over............... Motocross and Road Racing all of equal importance to me, although i had never been to a Road Race or short circuit either, just Motocross.
The annual TT was the big event for me in the Motorcycle News during June, reading avidly the practice news one week and then the race reports the following week. The photos painted a picture, but i had no idea what the circuit was really like until a long time afterwards.
Mike Hailwood was my big Road Racing hero and on the quiet country lanes around my home out in the Gloucestershire countryside, I was Mike on my bicycle.
Interesting what you say about the two stroke machines and their ability to seize at any moment. That is why the riders always raced with one finger on the clutch lever, at least that gave them a fighting chance to whip it in when they felt the engine was about to seize. Sadly many did not survive, and one of Britain's greats "little" Bill Ivy perished when his four cylinder two stroke Jawa seized in East Germany. If I am not mistaken the same might have happened to Joey Dunlop many years later.
JC
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Post by Jamie on Aug 2, 2018 17:16:37 GMT
Really enjoyed the latest bike centred back and forth gents, my motorcycle knowledge is at nowhere near you guys level so it’s been enlightening in the extreme.
And Lucio, it’s also been a pleasure to read your laments regarding your home country, if only for your wonderful way with words and not the realities contained therein.....
Perhaps, to an extent, similar to England...have a listen to the Kinks song ‘living on a thin line’ for an ode to an England past...
Have to agree that Italy is still a fabulous place though 👍
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Post by chrisb on Aug 2, 2018 21:01:36 GMT
Barry Sheene took a lot of flak about stopping GP racing at the IOM and those who criticised him seemed to have forgotten that he held the lap record at the fearsome old Spa Franchochamps and his bravery was incredible, I cannot decide which is the more dangerous and i think it would be a narrow decision,
Mikael, I haven't checked but I always thought it was a tyre exploding at Daytona that caused Barry's accident.
Motor Bike racing history is wonderful, if not tragic, the respect Ago and Mike held for each other is just so evident - two real legends - both of whom are incredibly respected,
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 1:08:45 GMT
According to the Swiss newspaper Blick, Niki Lauda seriously ill in hospital, apparently needed or needing a lung transplant.
Initially they thought it was fever not taken care properly, he then flew from his home in Spain back to Vienna in hospital, then his conditions apparently worsened with the news above. Don't know anything more.
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Post by Carl on Aug 3, 2018 1:49:21 GMT
According to the Swiss newspaper Blick, Niki Lauda seriously ill in hospital, apparently needed or needing a lung transplant. Initially they thought it was fever not taken care properly, he then flew from his home in Spain back to Vienna in hospital, then his conditions apparently worsened with the news above. Don't know anything more. Thanks for the heads-up, Lucio. Lauda is recovering after a successful lung transplant. Certainly we all wish him a successful recuperation and continued good health.
-Carl
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 1:59:20 GMT
Ah, so it was public knowledge then. Cheers Carl. Knew nothing about.
I suppose it must have been something long-time in the planning, he must have been waiting for a donor to then make his way back to Austria for the transplant.
We wish him well, of course.
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