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Post by charleselan on Oct 27, 2020 17:33:40 GMT
One or two points concerning Mikael's interesting post above.
The graph does not really give the true picture in my opinion as there are far more elements involved, none more so than the difficulty in comparing the past with the present.
Let us look at Jim Clark for instance. Jim's first season in F1 was in 1960 and it was actually dovetailed in with his first season in Formula Junior (more or less the F3 of the time). Before that he had raced an assortment of cars mainly in Club Racing throughout the UK, his international experience was very limited with something like the baptism of fire at Spa for a sportscar race in an old(ish) Lister Jaguar.
Let us just focus on this for one minute; his first season in F1 was at the same time as his first in Formula Junior. Personally I cannot imagine what that must have been like; steep learning curve or what! Even in that situation he turned in some excellent drives, and in the notoriously fragile Lotus 18 and yet again at the perilous Spa Francorchamps for the Belgian GP where he was confronted with two fatalities and two serious accidents (Stirling Moss & Mike Taylor both in Lotus 18 cars).
Jim's slow climb at the beginning of the graph doesn't factor in those matters. One other fact that bears looking at is that Jim drove in fewer races in his whole career than Lewis Hamilton did before reaching F1.
Jackie Stewart can also carry a similar scrutiny as he had one season in F3 prior to his F1 debut in 1965 after a few years in national Club Racing. The difference for JYS was that he entered F1 in a top team (BRM) and outstandingly won his first GP that very year, undoubtedly the greatest F1 debutant of all time.
In modern times the only guy that could come close to being like Jim or JYS in being so limited in experience before entering F1 would be Kimi who had one season of Formula Renault before entering F1.
These are just a few observations on my part.
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Post by chrisb on Oct 28, 2020 8:47:48 GMT
excellent discussion chaps, Mikael do you factor in the non-championship F1 races as well? I ask as in some cases they were better than the GP's and I think 1961 there were 23 non-championship F1 races for instance,
John Charles, also factoring in as above but also Jimmy was at le Mans in 1960 finishing a brilliant 3rd - with regards to JYS, I would totally agree - anyone in their debut F1 year finishing second at the old extremely fearsome but beautiful Spa in the rain transcends anyone else, an overlooked result, however Jackie drove something like a 100 races in 1964 in so many categories he certainly experienced a lot more than Jimmy ever did before his debut year which was supposed to be with Aston Martin and then only an additional driver when John was off winning motorbike races until that terrible tragic 1960 Belgium GP that is. Jimmy was on for 4th in his debut race until the Lotus queerbox packed up-
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Post by René on Oct 28, 2020 16:23:40 GMT
The fact that Lewis Hamilton has now broken Schumachers’ win record doesn’t make hime the best driver of all time of course. It’s useless and nonsense to compare drivers from different eras if you ask me. Hamilton’s advantage of having the best car year in year out and a clear #1 position in the team is a recepy to break all the records eventually. Certainly with 20+ Grand Prix every year. But this is not Lewis’s fault, he is only doing the best job he can. And Valtteri is also doing the best job he can but he’s just not as good as Lewis. Therefore I would like to strike a blow for Lewis as he is one of the most gifted drivers the sport has ever seen and I think we shouldn’t forget that. Lewis’s super talent was clear from his early karting days. Just have a look at these clips and admire the once in a generation talent that Lewis Hamilton is.
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Post by René on Oct 28, 2020 16:39:16 GMT
I like Valteri but think he is just better off in a Williams type outfit.. I do not entirely agree with this to be honest. I actually think Valtteri is the luckiest guy on the grid! Yes of course it's frustrating to get beaten by your team mate all the time, knowing that the team is mostly focussed on Lewis. But if Nico had not decided to quit F1 so abruptly, he probably would still be in a midfield team. He would not have won so many races, no pole positions and not have earned the money he is making now (even if that is a fraction of what they are paying Lewis). Any driver on the grid would want to swap seats with Bottas any time. He's one lucky guy to sit in that Mercedes.
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 28, 2020 16:59:58 GMT
Rene I don't think anyone is decrying LH's talent, I certainly don't. However, I think the problem is all the hype surrounding his achievements and how he is the greatest beyond doubt because he has won the most races, and how he is seen as squeaky clean by some people, causes immense irritation to others. He is not even that popular in his home country, a fact that was debated on one of the breakfast shows on Monday.
As you say he is doing the best job he can and it's not his fault he is in the best car but, would he have achieved 92 wins if he had more competition in the same team or from other teams, I don't think so, but that wouldn't mean he was no less talented. Anyway to quote Keke Rosberg once again "if my auntie had balls she would be my uncle" and LH has the most wins and that's that. Each person has his own view as to why such and such was better than so and so and it is all subjective as is the interpretation of statistics.
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Post by charleselan on Oct 28, 2020 17:33:32 GMT
René seeking the course of balance is laudable and is correct. However I think that Rob speaks for us all here as none of us are doubting Lewis Hamilton's talent and achievements, but as he says the thing that really sticks in the throat is the media's obsession in trying to make out that his win count makes him the greatest of all time (well the UK based ones).
I am surprised to hear that it was stated on Uk morning TV that he was not so popular in the country of his origin, but to be honest I am not, sorry if that sounds contradictory. A phrase is often used these days that something or someone is Marmite, which is a product that one spreads on bread based on yeast which one either loves or dislikes.
In many ways Lewis is his own worst enemy and ruins his great achievements by coming out with this nonsense that it was all so difficult, or it was someone else's fault. I appreciate that being of mixed race his early life was not made easy, especially considering the constant crap dished out by those of a racist disposition that pollute our societies. However he often comes across as a whinger instead of a strong and commanding leader in the sport. In all seriousness he could have learnt a lot more from Nikki in this respect.
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Post by Carl on Oct 28, 2020 18:16:30 GMT
The fact that Lewis Hamilton has now broken Schumachers’ win record doesn’t make hime the best driver of all time of course. It’s useless and nonsense to compare drivers from different eras if you ask me. Hamilton’s advantage of having the best car year in year out and a clear #1 position in the team is a recepy to break all the records eventually. Certainly with 20+ Grand Prix every year. But this is not Lewis’s fault, he is only doing the best job he can. And Valtteri is also doing the best job he can but he’s just not as good as Lewis. Therefore I would like to strike a blow for Lewis as he is one of the most gifted drivers the sport has ever seen and I think we shouldn’t forget that. Lewis’s super talent was clear from his early karting days. Just have a look at these clips and admire the once in a generation talent that Lewis Hamilton is. Yes, there is no doubting Lewis Hamilton's immense natural ability, on a par with other greats, but his self-image and self-importance very often degrade greatness to grating. “A great man is always willing to be little.”
― Ralph Waldo Emerson
“Good and great are seldom in the same man. ”
― Winston S. Churchill
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Post by René on Oct 28, 2020 19:32:22 GMT
Of course guys, I know there's no-one on this forum who doubts Lewis' talent. You're all connaisseurs after all.  But seriously, I came across these karting clips on YT and just wanted to share them. And I know from own experience that sometimes one can get blind for someone's achievements if that person is not entirely 'your cup of tea' for whatever reason. The media hype surrounding Hamilton is often annoying to say the least. But believe me, the hype around Verstappen in Holland is unbearable at times. Everyone is suddenly a F1 fan. People who never watched a race before 2015 suddenly know that Max is the best ever, even better than Senna as they always say (they know no other drivers probably). Drives me mad at times... Personally, I see in Lewis Hamilton an extremely gifted individual but at the same time a very insecure man. When the visor is down all the insecurity is gone. He knows how good he is. But in real life he has had to fight much harder battles. Racism has played a huge part in this, no doubt. His anti racism activism and Black Lives Matter support is genuine and comes from the heart but he has had to overcome his own insecurity to be so outspoken. It was a personal victory as I see it and I have a lot of respect for that. Also it was clear to see over the years that Lewis was searching for his own identity. The corporate McLaren look was easy for all to accept but obviously not for Lewis himself. The fight with his dad was clearly a way to break lose from the image that all wanted to see. I hope he is more at ease with himself now. I agree he can be a whinger sometimes which is a shame but I actually believe him when he says it was hard after another win. It was hard because he always pushes to the limit. But he misses the point that for other people it doesn't look hard because he's in the best car, for years now. That's probably his biggest shortcoming, he doesn't have a good feel for that. |
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Post by mikael on Oct 28, 2020 19:42:45 GMT
Words of wisdom, René. We should also keep in mind that the drivers are being much exposed in the present age of information technology. I believe that, in "the old days" many things went "under the radar". And in addition to the obligatory exposition, the drivers are expected to expose themselves further on the social media (Instagram, etc.). Of course, for the present generation, it's the same for all.
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 28, 2020 20:30:47 GMT
Words of wisdom, René. We should also keep in mind that the drivers are being much exposed in the present age of information technology. I believe that, in "the old days" many things went "under the radar". And in addition to the obligatory exposition, the drivers are expected to expose themselves further on the social media (Instagram, etc.). Of course, for the present generation, it's the same for all. I think Seb Vettel's approach to social media is the best. He doesn't do it and doesn't want to. |
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Post by Carl on Oct 28, 2020 23:42:38 GMT
Well said and true, Rene, underlining the complex nature of Lewis Hamilton. Nonetheless, his harsh description of childhood hometown Stevanege was disputed by those who also lived there and said it was far from a slum. My own nephew's experiences drove home the seemingly inescapable cruelties of racial hatred and were never exaggerated. Hamilton's behavior too often displays an insecurity common to prima donnas as well as an immutable immaturity. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
-William Shakespeare
Frailty, thy name is Lewis -with apologies to the Bard
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Post by chrisb on Oct 29, 2020 10:13:43 GMT
Rene, perhaps I needed to elaborate, maybe financially wise and in the history books Valteri will go down as a winner of so many GP's and finished in the championship so high up and that wouldn't have happened had he stayed at Williams, what I was trying to say I guess that as a personality he seems more suited to a smaller team mentality where it is less complicated or pressurised and his truer speed comes out, but yes of course anyone would grab that second seat without hesitation
Lewis has achieved an incredible amount and I hope he has just started in his attempts to redress the prejudices and injustices that blight our world and he deserves the respect and admiration of all as he is using his position to influence and he is also is a very very quick driver, something both Rob and I have remarked upon earlier and has made the best use of what he has in front of him - but he is not perfect - no one is - I don't like some of what he has done but i dislike much more the media and its usual adulation followed by criticising- I would dispute that he is unpopular as everywhere I have read his has a huge following and again comes across well in non-competitive moments, as for Stevenage,I haven't been there for years and it was a typical what we called a 'new town' built for a London overspill aka Milton Keynes - so a mixture of the rich, the not so but would like to be rich, the workers and the not too keen on working population and his Father and he did tremendously to get to where they are now from humble backgrounds, like the Beatles we have also seen Lewis grow up in front of us and like any human he has made mistakes and continues to do so and as Mikael says the age of technology is that very little is kept out of the limelight. But as Rob says you do have that choice, Seb keeps out of sight and good on whatever it is,
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Post by René on Oct 29, 2020 10:39:35 GMT
Rene, perhaps I needed to elaborate, maybe financially wise and in the history books Valteri will go down as a winner of so many GP's and finished in the championship so high up and that wouldn't have happened had he stayed at Williams, what I was trying to say I guess that as a personality he seems more suited to a smaller team mentality where it is less complicated or pressurised and his truer speed comes out, but yes of course anyone would grab that second seat without hesitation Lewis has achieved an incredible amount and I hope he has just started in his attempts to redress the prejudices and injustices that blight our world and he deserves the respect and admiration of all as he is using his position to influence and he is also is a very very quick driver, something both Rob and I have remarked upon earlier and has made the best use of what he has in front of him - but he is not perfect - no one is - I don't like some of what he has done but i dislike much more the media and its usual adulation followed by criticising- I would dispute that he is unpopular as everywhere I have read his has a huge following and again comes across well in non-competitive moments, as for Stevenage,I haven't been there for years and it was a typical what we called a 'new town' built for a London overspill aka Milton Keynes - so a mixture of the rich, the not so but would like to be rich, the workers and the not too keen on working population and his Father and he did tremendously to get to where they are now from humble backgrounds, like the Beatles we have also seen Lewis grow up in front of us and like any human he has made mistakes and continues to do so and as Mikael says the age of technology is that very little is kept out of the limelight. But as Rob says you do have that choice, Seb keeps out of sight and good on whatever it is, Yes of course Chris, I knew that is what you meant about Bottas and his personality. And maybe you're right but I still doubt he would want to swap seats with Russell! Good post!
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Post by Carl on Oct 29, 2020 16:58:30 GMT
Hamilton is a great driver and was on top of the world before adolescence thanks to his father's efforts and the special treatment his talent deserved. Many people struggle for equal opportunity because of prejudice, but his main struggle has been to control his ego.
He impresses me only behind the wheel.
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Post by René on Oct 29, 2020 18:48:15 GMT
Hamilton is a great driver and was on top of the world before adolescence thanks to his father's efforts and the special treatment his talent deserved. Many people struggle for equal opportunity because of prejudice, but his main struggle has been to control his ego. He impresses me only behind the wheel. Yes Carl, you have a point there. I actually agree more than you might think. But a damn good driver he is! |
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