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Post by robmarsh on Oct 25, 2020 17:38:03 GMT
Yep as 2020 races go, one of the better ones. The opening 10 laps were excellent. Congratulations to LH for becoming the winningest driver in F1. Superb efforts from Charles Leclerc and Pierre Gasly. Perez block on Gasly was worthy of a penalty. That is the second time this season he has done that. Somebody needs to have a word in his shell like.
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Post by René on Oct 25, 2020 18:11:20 GMT
Agreed Rob, one of the better ones even if the first four finished in the same order eventually. A lot of that was down to the track which looks great and with the slippery surface made for some spectacular first laps. Wonderful when Carlos took the lead, I hope to see that a lot next year!  Hamilton is just way better in tyre management than Bottas and the win was deserved. But the superiority of Mercedes is too much. But there was still enough to enjoy and some great fights. Charles and Pierre were top class again and that also goes for Max who extracts the max out of that Bull... must have been hard for Albon when he got lapped by Max. Can't see Alex in that car next year. Red Bull should try to get Russell... if they dare to team him up with Verstappen. |
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 25, 2020 18:35:02 GMT
Yep Rene I think Alex Albon is in a downward spiral and Christian Horner publicly put the proverbial boot into his ribs on live broadcast over the weekend. Corporate speak is a vile language, especially if you don't understand the nuances.
Mikael your comment on the difference in power units being the way they manage the fuel flow and what they get out of it is intriguing. In order to succeed then Mercedes must have a lot of help from Petronas. I don't think the fuel companies form part of the cost cap.
Mercedes domination was pretty massive this last race and that is after they stopped development on their car some weeks or months back to work on their 2021 car. I assume therefore that they will start that far ahead in terms of development next year which doesn't bode well for good racing unless....Ferrari are doing the same. With two chargers like Sainz and Leclerc some pressure may be brought on Mercedes who don't do so well when really pressured.
Hamilton is 38 years old and some three to four years off his prime. Bottas is 31 and some three to four years off his prime. Will the performance curves cross next year?
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Post by Carl on Oct 26, 2020 4:03:39 GMT
Yep as 2020 races go, one of the better ones. The opening 10 laps were excellent. Congratulations to LH for becoming the winningest driver in F1. Superb efforts from Charles Leclerc and Pierre Gasly. Perez block on Gasly was worthy of a penalty. That is the second time this season he has done that. Somebody needs to have a word in his shell like. The early laps were excellent and even after the excitement left, there were some exciting passes. Sergio Perez has hardball tendencies, best displayed in 2017 against his own teammate three times in a short span of time, in Canada, Spa and Baku. Incredibly stupid and dangerous, especially on the fastest parts of the tracks at Montreal and Spa. He's wired for violence when angered and a fast junior teammate is all it takes. |
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Post by Carl on Oct 26, 2020 4:24:00 GMT
I lost interest with 20 laps to go when Mercedes wouldn't allow Valtteri Bottas the soft tyres he chose, and don't accept the explanation that the first driver making the last stop establishes the tyre choice for both.
The real reason? Valtteri Bottas would have been faster on reds and may even have caught and passed for the lead. The paranoid Hamilton would have radioed after Bottas' pit stop to ask what was done and his childishness would have perceived any deviation as deliberate favoritism, so Mercedes alters its "rules" to whatever will most soothe its prima donna.
So I mounted soft tyres and changed the channel.
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 26, 2020 8:46:38 GMT
I lost interest with 20 laps to go when Mercedes wouldn't allow Valtteri Bottas the soft tyres he chose, and don't accept the explanation that the first driver making the last stop establishes the tyre choice for both. The real reason? Valtteri Bottas would have been faster on reds and may even have caught and passed for the lead. The paranoid Hamilton would have radioed after Bottas' pit stop to ask what was done and his childishness would have perceived any deviation as deliberate favoritism, so Mercedes alters its "rules" to whatever will most soothe its prima donna. So I mounted soft tyres and changed the channel. I agree Carl, p***ed me off too, though I didn't change channels. LH has been protected ever since he got to F1 and it really irritates at times, especially as it is never acknowledged. I discovered that LH is actually only 35, it just feels to me that he is 38. I guess my question as to when his and Bottas' performance curves will cross is irrelevant at this point in time. Bottas did seem nonplussed as to why his car lacked pace during the race, maybe now LH has reached the all important, too some, goal of most wins they will be allowed to race unhindered. I really find it almost impossible to listen to Tonto any more. |
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Post by chrisb on Oct 26, 2020 8:52:01 GMT
I haven't watched the race as yet, but I do like the circuit, one way or t'other Lewis has achieved a great deal, not bad for someone who sacrificed so much to get him there and I have a lot of respect for that. Lewis has made good use of what he has and that is that- much to my annoyance isn't so much Lewis as I don't think he has proclaimed himself emperor or the greatest one, is the wretched media saying he is the greatest ever, so annoying- he isn't - he has followed other modern examples of creating a team around him and woe betide anyone who can rattle that cage, not my idea of greatness,
recently watched a documentary on ytub on the Silver arrows the 1930's machines, it is very good and it waxes lyrical about Bernd Rosemayer and a certain Italian Tazio Nuvolari, and it was astonishing to watch their skill levels, which made me think about other 'greats'- Wimille, Ascari, Fangio, Stirling, Jimmy all who had very competitive team-mates and it didn't see having very fast team-mates as a problem, aka Graham Hill, Tony Brooks, etc, whereas the numerical winning success of both 90+ GP wins didn't allow for that after Nico packed up - my argument has always been that Mika was quicker than Michael, and I have no idea if Seb or Charles or Max are as quick or quicker than Lewis and we will never find out,
going back to a thought at the beginning of the year, will Lewiis retire at the end of this year?
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 26, 2020 9:50:52 GMT
I noticed Chris that the top three winningest drivers, Hamilton, Schumacher, Vettel won most of their races in the 21st Century where teams winning four or more championships on the trot is the rule. Ferrari 2000 to 2004, Red Bull 2010 to 2013 and Mercedes 2014 to date. During that time, only one driver, Rosberg, who was of similar talent to the chosen one, has been in the same team. I don't know when this favouring of one driver over the other became so apparent but Schumacher and Todt perfected it and it is ruining the sport and making the stats meaningless.
I do think though that Seb, Max and Charles would have put immense pressure on Lewis as would have Alonso had they been in the same team and the stats would have been different. Rosberg proved it.
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Post by mikael on Oct 26, 2020 11:15:32 GMT
Hamilton's new record is "In the News" on Wikipedia, which is nice. On that entry there is a link leading to the following figure (below) which is interesting. The curve/graph for Hamilton clearly has two different gradients (representing wins per year), one for his McLaren years and one for his Mercedes years. The gradient of Schumacher's curve is surprisingly constant!
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 26, 2020 16:20:22 GMT
Very interesting Mikael. Looking at Hamilton's graph, the McLaren years show a shallower gradient than the other drivers who all show similar gradients in fact.
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Post by Carl on Oct 26, 2020 16:36:30 GMT
I haven't watched the race as yet, but I do like the circuit, one way or t'other Lewis has achieved a great deal, not bad for someone who sacrificed so much to get him there and I have a lot of respect for that. Lewis has made good use of what he has and that is that- much to my annoyance isn't so much Lewis as I don't think he has proclaimed himself emperor or the greatest one, is the wretched media saying he is the greatest ever, so annoying- he isn't - he has followed other modern examples of creating a team around him and woe betide anyone who can rattle that cage, not my idea of greatness, recently watched a documentary on ytub on the Silver arrows the 1930's machines, it is very good and it waxes lyrical about Bernd Rosemayer and a certain Italian Tazio Nuvolari, and it was astonishing to watch their skill levels, which made me think about other 'greats'- Wimille, Ascari, Fangio, Stirling, Jimmy all who had very competitive team-mates and it didn't see having very fast team-mates as a problem, aka Graham Hill, Tony Brooks, etc, whereas the numerical winning success of both 90+ GP wins didn't allow for that after Nico packed up - my argument has always been that Mika was quicker than Michael, and I have no idea if Seb or Charles or Max are as quick or quicker than Lewis and we will never find out, going back to a thought at the beginning of the year, will Lewiis retire at the end of this year? Chris, There's no doubt about his early struggle or immense talent and I cheered loudly for Lewis Hamilton at Interlagos in 2008 and for some time after, but whether his conceit is self-anointed or an acceptance of the nonsense sometimes in print, his excessive appreciation of himself is more (perhaps less) than pride, but seems a basic weakness of character.
There's no doubting his talent, but someone who can't pass a reflective surface without pausing to admire his image invites harsh assessment.
"If I were King of the Forest
Not queen, not duke, not prince
My regal robes of the forest
Would be satin, not cotton, not chintz"
-with apologies to The Cowardly Lion
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Post by charleselan on Oct 26, 2020 16:53:28 GMT
I could write a book with the thoughts currently buzzing around in my head following the Portuguese Grand Prix, so I aim to keep it as short as possible.
Wonderful circuit for current F1 without a doubt, one of the highlights for me and this track must stay on the calendar, The undulations and some excellent camera angles made it a joy to watch, just loved those blind crest views etc.
DRS has to go, it was a complete joke seeing cars pass others with such ridiculous speed differentials, could have been on an Autobahn with a Porsche 911 GT3 passing a family saloon. One appreciates that current F1 aerodynamics makes following and overtaking difficult, so the answer is so flaming simple, change them.
Another boring MB fest', proven by the fact that the cameras and commentary followed the great racing lower down the order, if there aren't lessons to be learnt there then head should be banged together.
For me there were four outstanding drives; Charles; Pierre; Kimi and Carlos, all four hugely meritorious. Three appalling bits of driving however from Max; Sergio and Daniel. Admittedly Perez' was worse than Ricciardo's but weaving about on the straight isn't clever at those speeds and on a straight that is undulating.
To be honest I have never rated Perez but he is streets ahead of his lamentable team-mate who was truly found out on a circuit without much in the way of prior telemetry.
I haven't read any of Mark Hughes' race reports this year but i bet any money he is telling that the difference between Hamilton and Bottas is tyre usage. Valtteri looks like a beaten man, and completely at sea, as does poor young Alex Albon; both these lads are worthy of a place in F1 but not in the teams they are currently driving for.
If Fizzy Drinks cannot place Nico Hulkenburg in the second team car then how about giving Kevin Magnussen the job, I think he would be mighty in that car.
In finality I just have to say that the best driver in F1 right now is Charles Leclerc, and the lad is still on a learning curve, simply an outstanding talent.
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Post by robmarsh on Oct 26, 2020 20:18:30 GMT
Charles, you were spot on about Mark Hughes report. I feel for Valteri, he is a really nice guy but I can't see him putting LH under any sort of pressure in the current environment. It just makes me sad in fact.
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Post by mikael on Oct 27, 2020 11:38:54 GMT
Very interesting Mikael. Looking at Hamilton's graph, the McLaren years show a shallower gradient than the other drivers who all show similar gradients in fact. An interesting observation Rob. Yes, it's interesting to see that, the Greats of the past had, during relatively short careers, almost-constant winning rates that, by-and-large, were equivalent to that of Hamilton in his Mercedes years. |
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Post by chrisb on Oct 27, 2020 16:35:38 GMT
having now watched the race I do like this circuit but the run-off areas are immense and for quite a few drivers just as well - it just seemed chaotic to begin with and what a start by both Kimi and Carlos, impressive, but I could only bear 2 minutes of Croft and had then to turn the sound off, and a bit like that the race turned me off, but the good news is..looks like there will be a race in Saudi Arabia, deep joy,
interesting graph Mikael,
I like Valteri but think he is just better off in a Williams type outfit, are there rumours that lewis is retiring?
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