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Post by robmarsh on Aug 18, 2020 8:27:13 GMT
Some comments. Mercedes spends Euro100 million more than any other team it is also 33% more than any other team. That buys a lot of things. I am sure Renault, FIAT etc would be on a par or exceeding Mercedes with that extra level of spend.
I, too supported LH when he first arrived for exactly the same reasons as put forward by Chris and Charles. However, I soon found the whole set up around him very off putting and contrived, thereby lacking true sincerity. I remember the podium interviews in his first year. Alonso appeared in his race overalls straight from the podium, sweaty, disheveled and wet from champagne. Hamilton had changed into blindingly white new overalls that looked like they belonged in a Hugo Boss advert. It just looked like manipulating the optics. I also found his comments as to why he did things a bit of a fib. For example in one interview he said the reason why he had a bright yellow helmet was so that he could be found if he went off the track and was lost in the bushes. Firstly I don't know of too many tracks in the last few years that have thick bushes close to them and secondly Niki Lauda said that back in his first book and was referring specifically to his bright red helmet and the Nurburgring. Chrales mentioned the other day, before the GP, that Hamilton hadn't "Got into the Zone" like Senna did at Monaco in 1988 and low and behold he does in the next GP. No other driver ever likened themselves to the greats that went before them. I never heard Fangio, Moss, Clark, JYS, Lauda, Prost, Senna or Schumacher doing that. I just find this whole thing a bit contrived and insincere. A pity because he is a great driver and true sincerity goes much further than fake.
If F1 wants to properly embrace diversity then it needs to go back to Free to Air TV, otherwise it will remain elitist.
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Post by charleselan on Aug 18, 2020 12:36:31 GMT
As a bit of a diversion I viewed a film on YouTube last evening that was from the excellent John Tate series made in the late 1950's to early 1960's. I have seen these many times and have them all on DVD, but do not recall seeing this one on my large screen TV previously. It featured the 1957 Italian GP at Monza and was superb in its content.
The action was maybe not up to what we see in more recent years but as it was shot by the man himself on period Cine Camera that has to be expected. However the paddock and pit action was very good and seeing those glorious front engined Grand Prix cars was really beautiful.
That year only the road circuit was used and it was amazing to see how Monza was back then, very very rudimentary to say the least; and very much a park landscape.
I should imagine that many of todays viewers would be complaining about the fact that there were large time gaps between the competitors towards the end of the race (Stirling was leading Fangio by three quarters of a minute) but what needs to be understood is the fact that the races then last over three hours and mechanical reliability was not a given.
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Post by chrisb on Aug 18, 2020 16:12:54 GMT
wonderful John, I came across the 1954 French GP and the debut of the new MB's on utub the other day, gosh they were monsters - they looked huge but sounded fabulous
Rob, a great post mate and yea, it is the insincerity that blighted my opinion - copying others or likening themselves to Ayrton seems to indicate an insecurity and maybe the criticism is starting to affect Lewis, just be real Lewis, I'm sure you will win more fans that way,
which raises the question who else was insincere in victory?
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Post by Carl on Aug 19, 2020 0:03:09 GMT
As a bit of a diversion I viewed a film on YouTube last evening that was from the excellent John Tate series made in the late 1950's to early 1960's. I have seen these many times and have them all on DVD, but do not recall seeing this one on my large screen TV previously. It featured the 1957 Italian GP at Monza and was superb in its content. The action was maybe not up to what we see in more recent years but as it was shot by the man himself on period Cine Camera that has to be expected. However the paddock and pit action was very good and seeing those glorious front engined Grand Prix cars was really beautiful. That year only the road circuit was used and it was amazing to see how Monza was back then, very very rudimentary to say the least; and very much a park landscape. I should imagine that many of todays viewers would be complaining about the fact that there were large time gaps between the competitors towards the end of the race (Stirling was leading Fangio by three quarters of a minute) but what needs to be understood is the fact that the races then last over three hours and mechanical reliability was not a given. John Charles, An excellent film! In 1970, my friend and I had the same choice seats, directly above the pits, from which some practice scenes are filmed by John Tate. I did not, however, have an Aston-Martin to point south, as we arrived by train and on race day easily walked from our downtown hotel into and through the beautiful rows of trees of the great park surrounding the track. Our all day train from London had us in Monza late Saturday afternoon and a waiter at the hotel cafe, sensing we'd just arrived, approached our table and said "Jochen Rindt" once or twice questioningly. "Yes, Jochen Rindt", I said, uncertain of his intent, at which point he drew the edge of his hand across his throat. I was young, still had heroes, and was stunned. In those days, as you point out, there were often long intervals between cars, which were simply part of racing and enjoyed as a chance to compare notes with other spectators. My enduring memories are of the sudden acceleration at the start, like toys yanked by strings, and of Pedro Rodriguez coming into his pit directly below to briefly consult about some problem before rejoining with the same ferocious speed. Below is another short film from 1957, of Monaco, with some great overhead shots of the Gasometer hairpin, wonderful engine sounds and commentary from Raymond Baxter. The unyielding sandbag and stout wooden barriers at the chicane was the scene of an embarrassing meeting of three great drivers, fortunately without injury. -Carl
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Post by charleselan on Aug 19, 2020 10:30:52 GMT
That is a great tale, but obviously very sad Carl. It must have been a huge shock to be informed about Jochen Rindt's death like that, and must have ruined what would have been a tremendous experience.
Very astute of you to pick up the bit about John Tate arriving at Monza in his Aston Martin, he certainly wasn't short of a bob or two. I believe he had quite close links to Rob Walker as he made a lot of films of Rob's team in action over the years.
I found it interesting to see how Monza looked in that 1957 film, and how it had changed by 1961, particularly trackside on the straight going down towards the Parabolica Curve.
One thing I failed to comment upon in my previous post was the lamentable performance of the factory Ferrari 801's which was on a par with the current cars. Surprising as they had been pretty competitive at the Nurburgring, so much so that they drew out of El Maestro one of the most astounding drives in the history of the sport.
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Post by Carl on Aug 19, 2020 15:34:58 GMT
That is a great tale, but obviously very sad Carl. It must have been a huge shock to be informed about Jochen Rindt's death like that, and must have ruined what would have been a tremendous experience. Very astute of you to pick up the bit about John Tate arriving at Monza in his Aston Martin, he certainly wasn't short of a bob or two. I believe he had quite close links to Rob Walker as he made a lot of films of Rob's team in action over the years. I found it interesting to see how Monza looked in that 1957 film, and how it had changed by 1961, particularly trackside on the straight going down towards the Parabolica Curve. One thing I failed to comment upon in my previous post was the lamentable performance of the factory Ferrari 801's which was on a par with the current cars. Surprising as they had been pretty competitive at the Nurburgring, so much so that they drew out of El Maestro one of the most astounding drives in the history of the sport. Yes, it was shocking to learn of the death of a hero that way, from a morbid and gossiping waiter, but would have been equally shocking had I learned another way. I don't like gossip, despised the adolescence of the waiter, and asked nothing more. I still hadn't gotten used to Bruce McLaren's tragic death and the loss of Jochen Rindt clearly cast a mournful pall over the whole weekend, for many spectators as much a funeral wake as a race...
...until Clay Regazzoni's victory, after which the tifosi went wild. 
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Post by mikael on Aug 19, 2020 19:40:47 GMT
It's always a pleasure to have discussions here; and it's good that we don't agree 100% on anything :-)
I certainly agree that in the present times, F1 could learn a lot from MotoGP.
I came across a nice photo in MSM, showing a number of cars lined up next to each other. It's sad to notice how similar they are - on the outside, as well as in their "inner works". Almost carbon copies of each other.
In comparison, the MotoGP bikes appear to be, actually, quite different. A very significant difference is, of course, that some have V4 engines, while other have inline-4. Still, they are able to go head-to-head. On some tracks, an inline-4 in better; on other tracks, a V4 is better. If only the F1 rules gave the designers freedom enough to allow something similar! (Sadly, it wont happen anytime soon ...)
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Post by Carl on Aug 19, 2020 22:07:11 GMT
Great comparison photos, Mikael. In the overhead shot, the once grand F1 cars resemble clown shoes!
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Post by chrisb on Aug 20, 2020 7:00:11 GMT
lovely photos Mikael, what a wonderful montage of colour in MotoGP, I think on one of the major things I do seriously miss is the mixture of engines, many years ago I was advocating an 'open' engine format, where and my memory is vague here but something like the amount of fuel, emissions was all that was governed and something about how it could translate into road cars [ie Kers] - so imagination and genius would be interesting, sadly the 'big boys' would just throw money at this equation but maybe the likes of John Judd could have been involved as independents and who knows where that would have led, certainly feel it would have introduced a lot of clever stuff
Mat Oxley also wrote about the V4 vs the inline 4 pro's and con's and the engineering to make either work is incredible and also interesting, the shame is that triples. twins, or even 6 cylinders are banned, that is a pity as that would be fascinating
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Post by René on Aug 20, 2020 13:35:41 GMT
From another point of view it's impressive that Mercedes-Benz (MB) have been able to take such a "quantum leap" each year in the present era - even if they're well-funded. (Toyota (in the early 00's) were also generously funded; yet, in the end, they got very little out of it.) Racing Point may be a good yardstick. If their present car corresponds to the 2019 MB, then what they - as well as any other team - have achieved is to - just barely - catch up with the late-2019-season-level MB.
It's not just the engine - it seems that MB have become better and more innovative in any area (like the new steering system - an amazing idea!).
In one sense, it's disappointing that another manufacturer-team like Renault aren't putting in greater efforts, and that they - with their spectacular history and heritage - apparently have "thrown the towel in the ring" and are content of being, basically, a mid-field team. In other eras they were true pioneers (like with the 1.5L turbo engine in the mid/late 70's). In the present era they haven't displayed one single original idea, as far as I know.
---- As to the GP (I watched it from start to end on German RTL), I think that the TV producer could do a much better job in portraying the sheer beauty of high-precision driving (as done so well in movies like "Grand Prix", "Le Mans", and "Nine Days in Summer"). TV is always action- and drama-focussed - and this becomes tiresome in races where there aren't that much drama. When, say, the leader of the race drives "like a clockwork" - that could be *portrayed* in a good (i.e., better) way, such that the viewers can understand and admire it.
Mikael, like you I also admire the amazing engineering of modern F1 and that of Mercedes in particular. When you solely focus on how professional F1 nowadays is regarding engineering, team work and the constant training of the drivers, this sport has come a long way. The level of professionalism and perfection is mind blowing to see.
But this is also a sport and focussing only on how genius the Mercedes car is and how close to perfection Lewis's driving is, is not enough in the long term, at least not for me. The real excitement comes from competition, it's racing after all. And a race can only be exciting when there is more than one participant who can win. As Rob pointed out, Mercedes is outspending the competition in a way we haven't seen before. Yes they are doing an amazing job with all that money, much better than Toyota ever did! But the sport is suffering and something needs to be done. I think we're passed the point that you can say it's up to the competition to do a better job. Noone can spend the amount of money Mercedes is doing for such a long time. Mercedes has won, now back to normal please.
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Post by René on Aug 20, 2020 13:39:42 GMT
As a bit of a diversion I viewed a film on YouTube last evening that was from the excellent John Tate series made in the late 1950's to early 1960's. I have seen these many times and have them all on DVD, but do not recall seeing this one on my large screen TV previously. It featured the 1957 Italian GP at Monza and was superb in its content. The action was maybe not up to what we see in more recent years but as it was shot by the man himself on period Cine Camera that has to be expected. However the paddock and pit action was very good and seeing those glorious front engined Grand Prix cars was really beautiful. That year only the road circuit was used and it was amazing to see how Monza was back then, very very rudimentary to say the least; and very much a park landscape. I should imagine that many of todays viewers would be complaining about the fact that there were large time gaps between the competitors towards the end of the race (Stirling was leading Fangio by three quarters of a minute) but what needs to be understood is the fact that the races then last over three hours and mechanical reliability was not a given. Thanks for the diversion! A fantastic film. |
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Post by charleselan on Aug 20, 2020 17:05:14 GMT
Great photographs of the similarities or not in both F1 was and MotoGP bikes Mikael.
There do not appear to be much in the way of differences in the appearance of the current F1 cars on immediate viewing but I am certain that those of a certain disposition could spend hours highlighting the nuances in each car. The main thing being that in years past the cars looked significantly different, just look at the cars that appear in both the 1957 Monza film and that of the 1957 Monaco GP.
Then of course it was down to the individual designer to come up with a race car design, not only in body shape but chassis configuration and engine layout. Now of course it is down to the computer to analyse the restrictive regulations and come up with the answer. Obviously they are amazing technical devices, none more so than the Mercedes Benz but the huge amount of finances they throw at the enterprise makes a mockery out of a competitive environment.
MotoGP does appear to have a great deal more diversity and the spread of competitive manufacturers is very good. MotoGP also has very restrictive regulations with its limit of four cylinder engines only, but they are allowed to have different configurations like inline of "V" formations. The different manufactures also have alternative ideas on these also with the "V" being at different angles and the inline fours of Suzuki and Yamaha having completely different firing orders and crank designs. The Yamaha has a what is known as a flat plane crank which makes the engine operate in a completely different way as well as sounding more like a "V" Four.
As Chris says above it is a shame that there is a limit on the amount of cylinders allowed as not so long ago Honda had an amazing "V" Five engine, and of course there were three cylinder engines like the ill starred Aprilia.
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Post by René on Aug 20, 2020 18:39:53 GMT
A noteworthy comment from Mauro Forghieri regarding Vettel and Ferrari: Legendary Ferrari figure Mauro Forghieri has critiqued Mattia Binotto's management of the struggling Italian team's drivers. Speaking to Italian insider Leo Turrini's Quotidiano blog, Forghieri - a major player at Ferrari from the 60s to the 80s - claims Maranello has "a human resources problem". "There is no lack of money at Maranello," he said. "I am convinced that Ferrari must strengthen its technical structure. Quickly." Binotto has come under fire recently as some question whether the long-time engineer, who was promoted last year, is also an effective team boss. "Binotto is playing a very delicate role," Forghieri said. "I know from experience! "Being the head of the Gestione Sportiva is really difficult, the pressure is enormous, and Ferrari never forgives anything. Binotto must surround himself with the right people for the skills that are obviously lacking." Following the legality saga of 2019, Ferrari's engine is now conspicuously down on power but Forghieri insists the car is "wrong in other areas too". His most specific criticism, however, is of Binotto's handling of the drivers. Charles Leclerc, for instance, is "very talented", but also "so young". "Ferrari should not have charged him with so much responsibility so soon," said Forghieri. Forghieri also said his old boss, Enzo Ferrari, would probably not approve of the way Sebastian Vettel's looming departure was handled. "I don't like to upset Enzo Ferrari, because I really knew him and I know that things are attributed to him that he would never have done," he said. "But I am sure that he would have handled Seb's farewell differently. He deserved a more respectful treatment." Source: Grandprix.com |
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Post by robmarsh on Aug 20, 2020 19:01:32 GMT
Hear Hear
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Post by charleselan on Aug 21, 2020 14:29:25 GMT
I agree whole heartedly that Sebastian has been very poorly treated by Ferrari; despicably to be complete. The management at Maranello are not of the highest level and I really think that Binotto should have remained in charge of the technical side with some one like Stefano Domenicali as overall manager. Sadly it would appear that Ducati are of a similar mind set and have gained similar results.
I do not however agree that Charles is too young, or very young which ever is the way one would interpret that opinion. He is young of course but so have many others been in the past, it actually comes down to how they are managed and what relationship they have with their technical chief that really matters.
Sebastian's confidence has taken a large knock over the past two years, for various reasons, however he has a huge amount still to give in the right environment. I just hope that he can find that.
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