Lotus 78

[Jamie]

Or his Uncles for that matter....

[chrisb]

I saw the Lotus 78 at Silverstone in 1977 and was over the moon when Gunnar won in Belgium and it was so captivating, then the 79 appeared, black beauty indeed, a most gorgeous looking of all cars and the hopes we had with the 80 but tragically it didn't work - without souring the note didn't Colin always say that had Ronnie been in the 79 at Monza the survival chances were far greater and changed his attitude towards his mechanics. But the 79 at Brands driven in anger was beautiful, and surely, especially when one looks at modern F1 cars one of the most beautiful creations in motor sport

I too liked the 88 and was so miffed that it was banned, I did honestly think that was the way forward and the twin chassis principal would have entered the retail market, but for the short-sightedness of the powers to be

Totally agree with Michael, I do think he was up against a stacked deck to begin with, the complexity of a modern F1 car and the manners and behaviour of the F1 drivers was so alien to an Indycar champion it was no wonder he was confused, but there were times you saw the raw speed and the British press hammered him, which I never understood why, as for Marco he just feels a complete disappointment and I don't understand why

best wishes
junior member 2 star ChrisB

[Carl]

Nov 14, 2017 21:26:22 GMT Jamie said:

Or his Uncles for that matter....

John and Jeff were both very good...  I believe John was better than Marco for sure.  So much of Marco's lack of success comes from lack of desire.  The same was a factor with both uncles.  All the Andretti males have to be number 2 to Mario and that gets old fast.

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2017 3:58:21 GMT Carl said:

I understand that Michael had twins not long ago from his latest (LOL, sorry - good man) wife, I seem to remember a girl and a boy, and the boy is called "Mario". Aptly, finally.

I am sure I am wrong, but I always have this image of some (most?) Italian-Americans that they would struggle to find the Old Country on a map...

[Deleted]

Nov 14, 2017 21:20:26 GMT Carl said:

Michael was far better than most realize.  He holds the record for most laps led at Indy without a victory.  He had the race won several times but shared the dismal Andretti luck there.  Some observers feel Michael had little chance to succeed with McLaren in 1993, thanks to his father's advice.  Mario had him flying back and forth between races just as he had done 15 years before, but times had changed.  As a consequence, Michael never had adequate time in England to test and learn. 

Marco has the basics but I doubt he has real interest.  In my opinion, he's just doing what's expected.

Are you sure it was Mario advising his son about shuttling between the US and Europe? I know he used to do it in his time, also because he had racing commitments in the US most of the time, but in the '90s F1 racing was already too complex to approach it as a part-timer.

I have read some peculiar stories about Michael’s then wife Sandra (Marco’s mother), that she was very high maintenance when around here (Woking) during Michael’s ill-fated F1 year.

I read somewhere Mario saying that he was European at heart (obviously, I may add), but his family (Michael etc) were American kids. They didn’t like the food, understand the culture nor the history. I have read also, though, that Mario’s children loved nonna Rina’s recipes. At least that…

[Carl]

I'm not entirely positive. Apparently there was more than shuttling working against Michael's success. Others have cited partisan resentment, which would be laughably ignorant if true, considering that Teddy Mayer and Tyler Alexander, essential members of Bruce McLaren's early team, were both American.

I don't doubt the peculiarity of Sandra. American race broadcasts (human interest ya know) often had an annoying focus on drivers' wives and I seem to remember she dressed oddly. Another unusual one was Emerson Fittipaldi's wife Teresa (1995-2002), whose superstitions compelled her to gesture each lap as he sped past. I never understood why this fixation on wives was important.

Most Americans are geographic imbeciles, although the Italian-American tradition has been to revere the old country. As they should.

[Deleted]

Carl, didn't mean it in derogatory terms, what I meant is that after the first generation, those born and bred in the new country are locals. It is obviously a plus to retain an interest on the roots and the culture, if that is important in the family (sometimes it isn't).

As far as Michael's F1, no doubt there was a lot going on behind the scenes, being paired with Senna was always a tall order and I don't think his attempt at F1 should be judged by that comparison. Also, probably racing for Ron Dennis wasn't easy, having dealt for years with drivers like Prost and Senna on their prime. At a certain point he was clearly on the pace, he came third in his last race at Monza. I was disappointed, but also thought that to crack F1 takes time and some humbling on the way, and that is not easy for someone who has been a star until the week before in his country.

[Deleted]

This shows the difference between the 78 and the 79. The top elevation is the 78. The cutaway below is the 79.

The elevations show the different side wing profiles, longer in the 79. The 78 had, I think, three fuel tanks, two of which in the sidepods, either side.
The 79 had the tank between the driver's cockpit and the engine, within the engine's width. This meant longer wheelbase, to have longer lateral wing profiles (and different location of the aero centre of pressure) and consequent novel weight distribution and related changed car dynamics, with some aerodynamic porpoising on top. They still ran with relatively soft springs, they were beginning to understand that everything - suspensions, chassis - had to be quite a bit stiffer to cope with the increased loads.

[Deleted]

This is Gunnar in the 1977 Japanese GP, with the sponsor's local brand colours.

[René]

Nov 15, 2017 20:01:10 GMT Carl said:

I don't doubt the peculiarity of Sandra. American race broadcasts (human interest ya know) included an irritating focus on wives and I seem to remember she dressed oddly.

Most Americans are geographic imbeciles, although the Italian-American tradition has been to revere the old country. As they should.

I remember Michael's wife, Sandra. Not her name but how she came across on tv. A peculiar woman but besides the odd clothes I always had the feeling she was very nervous and not relaxed with the situation she was in. A strange world to her.

I wouldn't dare to say that most Americans are geographic imbeciles as direct as you did but through European eyes it often feels like it to be honest. America is huge and very focused on itself I think. If you are from a small country like me or Mikael you are more focused on the outside world because your own country is so small and only a few million people speak your language so you learn English and German or French from a young age. Is that also the case for American kids that live near the Mexican or (French) Canadian border?

[René]

Nov 15, 2017 20:43:35 GMT @lucio said:

This shows the difference between the 78 and the 79. The top elevation is the 78. The cutaway below is the 79.

The elevations show the different side wing profiles, longer in the 79. The 78 had, I think, three fuel tanks, two of which in the sidepods, either side.
The 79 had the tank between the driver's cockpit and the engine, within the engine's width. This meant longer wheelbase, to have longer lateral wing profiles (and different location of the aero centre of pressure) and consequent novel weight distribution and related changed car dynamics, with some aerodynamic porpoising on top. They still ran with relatively soft springs, they were beginning to understand that everything - suspensions, chassis - had to be quite a bit stiffer to cope with the increased loads.

Fantastic post Lucio and a great comparison drawing!

[René]

Nov 15, 2017 20:48:06 GMT @lucio said:

This is Gunnar in the 1977 Japanese GP, with the sponsor's local brand colours.

And talking about photogenic seventies cars! I love the Gitanes livery, just beautiful.

[Carl]

Lucio,

I didn't mean to suggest other than my agreement with the points you made. Sometimes in haste, I write too fast!

Many Americans have difficulty locating other countries on a map. On one of the late-night talk shows, they occasionally send someone outside to ask people to pinpoint recently prominent places on a map. The producers know they'll be met by almost total ignorance.

Although succeeding generations always blend into the culture where they are, I admire the reverence most Italian-Americans retain for Italy.

[Carl]

Nov 15, 2017 20:51:16 GMT René said:

Nov 15, 2017 20:01:10 GMT Carl said:

I don't doubt the peculiarity of Sandra. American race broadcasts (human interest ya know) included an irritating focus on wives and I seem to remember she dressed oddly.

Most Americans are geographic imbeciles, although the Italian-American tradition has been to revere the old country. As they should.

 If you are from a small country like me or Mikael you are more focused on the outside world because your own country is so small and only a few million people speak your language so you learn English and German or French from a young age. Is that also the case for American kids that live near the Mexican or (French) Canadian border?

Rene,
            Almost all Quebecois also speak English, so very few Americans, even those close to Quebec, learn French.  Many Hispanics (especially those with relatives in Mexico) are fluent in Spanish and English.  Where I live on California's central coast, I sometimes encounter families in which the older generations speak only Spanish and the children are fluent in both languages.  This is common, of course, worldwide among all immigrants. 

I speak some Spanish and can make myself understood, although at times I seem like a tonto (fool).  I once wished someone "Happy Birthday" by saying "Feliz Navidad" (literally happy nativity) which to Latinos refers only to Christmas!  Baboso mio!  I should have said "Feliz cumpleanos".

How do some Americans see themselves?  Like an 800 pound gorilla looking in a mirror and imagining they see Clark Gable.   

[chrisb]

Lucio, wonderful prints and photo's does remind me of teh chap whose name is escaping e who used to do these detailed drawings for Autosport

I work with young people in the North_east of England and their knowledge of geography is lamentable, one asking me yesterday where I was from- Kent, Kent? where is that in America? my groan suggested to them it wasn't, so not only do I have to carry a dictionary but now an atlas...and I am not a teacher


20 years ago I was in Ethiopia and met some Ethioamericans - which is how they introduced themselves, I'm not sure they were amused when I said I was from the UKopeans - as if i was extracting the rise...as if....