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Post by mikael on Jul 23, 2020 10:20:16 GMT
Having summer vacation this week (without traveling - except for a few day trips) I was musing on how racing motorcycles have developed from around 1980 (when I thought about little else than motorcycles) to now - forty years later.
On the surface, motocross motor cycle haven't changed that much; it seems that the really big changes appeared in the late 1970's. Since then, it has, apparently, just been minor refinements year-by-year.
But it's a completely different story with Grand Prix/ road racing (MotoGP) motorcycles. It's really interesting to compare Kenny Robert's low-slung 1980 factory racer with Valentino Rossi's tall-legged 2020 ditto. The design philosophies are completely different here ...
The 1980 factory 500cc Kawasaki motocross bike of Brad Lackey
A 2020 factory Kawasaki motocross bike. More "streamlined" and clearly with all weight concentrated at the centre. But not "completely different" ...
The 1980 factory Yamaha Grand Prix racer of Kenny Roberts.
The 2020 factory Yamaha Grand Prix racer of Valentino Rossi. (In appearance, closer to a 1980 motocross bike than to a 1980 road racing bike.)
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Post by charleselan on Jul 23, 2020 16:57:29 GMT
Out of pure coincidence Mikael I watched a little film on YouTube last evening not professionally produced about some motocross action in the USA. The film was about a young rider competing on a 1990's 500cc "Two Stroke" Honda machine against some guys on current 450cc "4 Stroke" bikes.
It was a strange set up with one lot of riders racing off in a supposed race leaving huge dust clouds everywhere and then another groups starting soon afterwards including this 1990's machine. The lad on the old "two stroke" swept into the lead and was every bit as quick as the new bikes he was racing against. Obviously rider ability might have come into it, but they all looked pretty competent to me, so the performance of the 1990 machine was interesting.
I wonder if the high rear stance of the current MotoGP bikes is due to the need to get weight forward as it appears that front end grip is the holy grail in performance currently.
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Post by mikael on Jul 24, 2020 19:40:53 GMT
Out of pure coincidence Mikael I watched a little film on YouTube last evening not professionally produced about some motocross action in the USA. The film was about a young rider competing on a 1990's 500cc "Two Stroke" Honda machine against some guys on current 450cc "4 Stroke" bikes. It was a strange set up with one lot of riders racing off in a supposed race leaving huge dust clouds everywhere and then another groups starting soon afterwards including this 1990's machine. The lad on the old "two stroke" swept into the lead and was every bit as quick as the new bikes he was racing against. Obviously rider ability might have come into it, but they all looked pretty competent to me, so the performance of the 1990 machine was interesting. I wonder if the high rear stance of the current MotoGP bikes is due to the need to get weight forward as it appears that front end grip is the holy grail in performance currently.
JC, that's interesting. It seems to be a testimony that the evolution in motocross during the last twenty or so years has not been overwhelming - as if the design has converged, in a way.
Yes, the contemporary MotoGP bikes are very interesting indeed. Just the way the engine is mounted - so high up, completely in opposition to the philosophy of the '70's and '80's.
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Post by René on Jul 25, 2020 11:13:17 GMT
The 1980 factory Yamaha Grand Prix racer of Kenny Roberts. I love that bike! The shape and the livery are superb. My brother had a poster of Kenny in action on this bike on his bedroom wall. Childhood memories. |
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Post by charleselan on Jul 25, 2020 11:32:23 GMT
Yes those 1970's 500cc GP bikes were fabulous looking machines with some iconic colour schemes like Kenny's yellow Yamaha. The white and red versions that were the original factory colours were also beautiful; Steve Baker's mid seventies 500 & 750 machines looked stunning.
Interesting to see that the riders seemed to sit in the machines back then and in the preceding years, whereas these days the sit up on the the bike.
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Post by Carl on Jul 25, 2020 17:41:24 GMT
The 1980 factory Yamaha Grand Prix racer of Kenny Roberts. I love that bike! The shape and the livery are superb. My brother had a poster of Kenny in action on this bike on his bedroom wall. Childhood memories. Usually referred to in America simply as Kenny Roberts, always majestic on a road course.
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Post by René on Jul 25, 2020 22:44:43 GMT
Fantastic to see Kenny on that bike again. And everyone there was enjoying that! Great stuff.
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Post by Carl on Jul 26, 2020 3:45:56 GMT
Yes those 1970's 500cc GP bikes were fabulous looking machines with some iconic colour schemes like Kenny's yellow Yamaha. The white and red versions that were the original factory colours were also beautiful; Steve Baker's mid seventies 500 & 750 machines looked stunning. Interesting to see that the riders seemed to sit in the machines back then and in the preceding years, whereas these days the sit up on the the bike. The better for a rider to caress curb with caboose? |
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Post by chrisb on Jul 26, 2020 6:09:09 GMT
the 500cc bikes look so dangerous by comparison to today's machines, and they were, but objects of beauty and art, and that noise, I saw Barry's son take out one of his old Suzuki's and it was awesome, the evolution has been spectacular and reminds me of a trip I did in India about 14 years ago on a Royal Enfield Bullet with drum brakes, where I perfected rear wheel skidding which was great fun, until I got home and on the bike of that time a Suzuki GSF750 with amazing brakes that nearly through me over the bars the first time I rode it
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Post by mikael on Jul 26, 2020 7:44:54 GMT
Yes those 1970's 500cc GP bikes were fabulous looking machines with some iconic colour schemes like Kenny's yellow Yamaha. The white and red versions that were the original factory colours were also beautiful; Steve Baker's mid seventies 500 & 750 machines looked stunning.
In motocross, starting in the mid-70's, the Yamaha bikes for the American market were yellow and black (yellow base colour), while those for the European market (as well as for the Japanese home market) were white and red, with a good deal of black as well (white base colour).
I always found that "policy" a bit strange, because Suzuki used the exact same bright yellow colour (and used it globally). And now, as reflected in Valentino Rossi's MotoGP racer, Yamaha's racing colour is blue.
So Yamaha have, apparently, been curiously undecided about their official racing colour. On the other hand, Hondas have always been red (at least since the mid-70's - they were originally silver), Suzukis have always been yellow, and Kawasakis have always been bright green.
Ad for the 1981 Yamaha YZ 125cc motocross bike for the American market.
Ad for the 1981 Yamaha YZ 125cc motocross bike for the European market.
Yamaha YZ 125 (two stroke) 2020 model - now in blue.
American 1982 World Champion in the 250cc class, Danny Laporte, in European Yamaha colours.
American 1982 Motocross Champion, 250cc class, Ricky Johnson, in Yamaha US colours.
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Post by mikael on Jul 26, 2020 10:34:47 GMT
Interesting to see that the riders seemed to sit in the machines back then and in the preceding years, whereas these days the sit up on the the bike.
Yes, looking at the low-slung machines from that time, Dan Gurney's idea of taking "a low centre of gravity" to the extreme made a good deal of sense. According to this website, the first prototype of the "Alligator" motorcycle was realized in 1976:
Dan Gurney's "Alligator"
But again, it's interesting that the evolution in MotoGP actually went in the complete opposite direction.
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Post by charleselan on Jul 26, 2020 11:19:34 GMT
It is really fascinating to see the colour schemes of the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers in the sporting arena. In the 1960's the Road Racing colours of the various manufacturers were very clear. As Mikael points out correctly Honda's were largely silver, in fact it was the fairings that were silver with a pronounced yellow flash on each side. The bike itself had a bright red fuel tank as was the rear fairing to the seat, as in the photo below of Mike Hailwood on the fearsome 500cc "four".  The Yamaha's in the 1960's were largely white with a wide red band around the waist of the fairing, often I believe outlined by a black pin stripe; the lower fairing belly pan was silver maybe bare metal. In this B&W photo of Bill Ivy on a four cylinder two stroke 250 factory Yamaha.  The works Suzuki's of that period were finished in blue and silver, with the top part of the fairing a darkish blue and the lower side panels in silver. This was a colour scheme also used by the East German MZ team at that time also. In Motocross I have a clear memory off the first factory Suzuki machines entering the 250cc World Championship and as Mikael also says these were yellow in colour (tank and mudguards). This photo of the great Roger De Coster is a good example of the bikes at that time in the early 1970's.  The Yamaha's were always white with some red flashes, sometimes largish blocks and also small blocked colour segments. Kawasaki have always remained honest to their green colours which became quite bright by the mid 1970's, hence the term used at the time "Green Meanies". Coming back to the official European factory Yamaha colours of the 1970's in road racing her is a great photo of the very talented American Steve Baker on his TZ750 (OW31) Yamaha on which he won the 1977 750cc World Championship, the first American to win a world championship.   |
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Post by mikael on Aug 22, 2021 10:32:48 GMT
Came across this nice overview of the evolution of the "Road Racing" Grand Prix motorcycle, from 1949 to 2015. There are many interesting small things to notice.
First, it's interesting to notice how little the MV Agusta's changed during their 17 years at the to of the sport.
Secondly, during the long reign of the Japanese marques, it's interesting to notice that changes have come only gradually. There are no "quantum leaps" anywhere; the transition during all 40 (+1) years at the top, from 1975 to 2015, appears to have happened smoothly, with small changes year by year.
Finally, out of the "big four" of the Japanese manufacturers (Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha), it's interesting that Kawasaki never has made it to the top, while the other three have. Out of these four, I believe that Kawasaki (Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Ltd.) is, by far, the largest and wealthiest organization, considering their involvement in the ship- and train-building industry. (It was Kawasaki that built the original Shinkansen high-speed trains, for example. Nowadays, Hitachi and Mitsubishi are involved as well.) In comparison, Suzuki for example, is a much smaller organization.
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Post by mikael on Aug 22, 2021 11:16:10 GMT
Mitsubishi: an example of an industrial giant that left the two-wheeler industry: Mitsubishi Silver Pigeon (late 1940's - early 1960's)
Rikuo, one of the many perished Japanese motorcycle brands. (They built Harley-Davidson's for the Japanese marked, on license from the American mother company. They ceased to exist in the early 1960's.)
Hodaka, another one, which survived a couple of decades longer (to the late 70's).
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Post by chrisb on Aug 23, 2021 16:39:15 GMT
great stuff Mikael, my word looking at those champions, and the machinery I found myself drooling, not I hasten to add for any age related reasons just a wonderful picture.
I didn't know Mitsubushi did bikes, I was aware of their aviation history but that is interesting, thanks Mikael
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