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Post by robmarsh on Nov 4, 2021 12:24:17 GMT
Talking of the aerodynamic aids on the Vollstedt it is interesting to note that Team Lotus tried similar nose mounted fins in practice at the 1967 Belgian GP in practice but did not use them for some reason. It was also reported that during the 1967/68 Tasman series that Lotus fitted part of a helicopter propellor as a vestigial rear wing in testing, but unfortunately there appears to be no photos of the experiment. I wonder if Jim took this idea wit him after driving the Vollstedt and suggested it to his mechanics while in Australia and New Zealand. Hi Charles Picture of said wing. This picture was taken from the excellent book on the Lotus 49 written by Michael Oliver. The caption reads: The wing: after driving an Indy car with a vestigial wing, Clark was keen to try one on his Lotus and so his mechanics made this, from a sawn-off section of a helicopter rotor. Angle of attack was determined by hanging it out of the window on the way back from the airfield! When Colin Chapman found out about, he ordered it to be removed forthwith and it was never races.. Attachments:
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 4, 2021 12:27:52 GMT
I loved the way they tested it's potential effectiveness. Can't quite imagine Adrian Newey driving around holding a barge board out the window.
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Post by René on Nov 4, 2021 19:11:51 GMT
Talking of the aerodynamic aids on the Vollstedt it is interesting to note that Team Lotus tried similar nose mounted fins in practice at the 1967 Belgian GP in practice but did not use them for some reason. It was also reported that during the 1967/68 Tasman series that Lotus fitted part of a helicopter propellor as a vestigial rear wing in testing, but unfortunately there appears to be no photos of the experiment. I wonder if Jim took this idea wit him after driving the Vollstedt and suggested it to his mechanics while in Australia and New Zealand. Hi Charles Picture of said wing. This picture was taken from the excellent book on the Lotus 49 written by Michael Oliver. The caption reads: The wing: after driving an Indy car with a vestigial wing, Clark was keen to try one on his Lotus and so his mechanics made this, from a sawn-off section of a helicopter rotor. Angle of attack was determined by hanging it out of the window on the way back from the airfield! When Colin Chapman found out about, he ordered it to be removed forthwith and it was never races.. Very interesting, Rob. Also remarkable that Chapman of all people was not interested or convinced of an aero device that creates downforce. Jim obviously saw the potential. |
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Post by René on Nov 4, 2021 19:18:14 GMT
I loved the way they tested it's potential effectiveness. Can't quite imagine Adrian Newey driving around holding a barge board out the window.   |
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Post by Carl on Nov 5, 2021 0:41:12 GMT
Talking of the aerodynamic aids on the Vollstedt it is interesting to note that Team Lotus tried similar nose mounted fins in practice at the 1967 Belgian GP in practice but did not use them for some reason. It was also reported that during the 1967/68 Tasman series that Lotus fitted part of a helicopter propellor as a vestigial rear wing in testing, but unfortunately there appears to be no photos of the experiment. I wonder if Jim took this idea wit him after driving the Vollstedt and suggested it to his mechanics while in Australia and New Zealand. Watching the film I noticed that Jerry Grant's #78 Eagle had a similar rear wing.
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Post by charleselan on Nov 5, 2021 12:24:11 GMT
Talking of the aerodynamic aids on the Vollstedt it is interesting to note that Team Lotus tried similar nose mounted fins in practice at the 1967 Belgian GP in practice but did not use them for some reason. It was also reported that during the 1967/68 Tasman series that Lotus fitted part of a helicopter propellor as a vestigial rear wing in testing, but unfortunately there appears to be no photos of the experiment. I wonder if Jim took this idea wit him after driving the Vollstedt and suggested it to his mechanics while in Australia and New Zealand. Hi Charles Picture of said wing. This picture was taken from the excellent book on the Lotus 49 written by Michael Oliver. The caption reads: The wing: after driving an Indy car with a vestigial wing, Clark was keen to try one on his Lotus and so his mechanics made this, from a sawn-off section of a helicopter rotor. Angle of attack was determined by hanging it out of the window on the way back from the airfield! When Colin Chapman found out about, he ordered it to be removed forthwith and it was never races.. Cheers Rob, That is the first time I have seen photo of the experiment although I have lots of Lotus books none ever featured this. I do not have the Michael Oliver book either. I don't think Colin Chapman was at the Tasman races that season and would have ordered its removal from afar. My feeling being that he wasn't too keen on anyone but himself showing ingenuity, and probably done under the guise of it not being tested under his supervision. It is interesting to note that the first ideas used by Lotus in 1968 to gain rear downforce came with the "duck tail" bodywork which when looked at does have some passing similarities in positioning and shape to the device used on Jim Clark's Vollstedt from 1967.  |
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Post by charleselan on Nov 5, 2021 12:28:48 GMT
Talking of the aerodynamic aids on the Vollstedt it is interesting to note that Team Lotus tried similar nose mounted fins in practice at the 1967 Belgian GP in practice but did not use them for some reason. It was also reported that during the 1967/68 Tasman series that Lotus fitted part of a helicopter propellor as a vestigial rear wing in testing, but unfortunately there appears to be no photos of the experiment. I wonder if Jim took this idea wit him after driving the Vollstedt and suggested it to his mechanics while in Australia and New Zealand. Watching the film I noticed that Jerry Grant's #78 Eagle had a similar rear wing.
<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Not only Jerry Grant but also Dan Gurney himself had a wing across the rear of his car attached to his exhaust tail pipes, but due to having a different engine the design was of a thin blade like "wing". One can also see a flick up at the rear and soon we would be getting the "Gurney Flap"  .  |
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Post by charleselan on Nov 5, 2021 12:46:16 GMT
Here is a photo of Jim Clark driving the Vollstedt and i am certain that it is not at Riverside, also the car has a different style of "wing" on the exhausts, somewhat smaller in shape. So did Jim actually test the car before the Rex Mays 300 at Riverside, this photo would suggest that he did.  Here is another photo of Jim in the car surrounded by team members and onlookers, is this Riverside?  Finally we have a photo of Dan leading Jim both with very obvious aerodynamic aides on their respective cars, also interesting to see that USAC were actually ahead of F1 in adopting these devices.  |
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Post by robmarsh on Nov 5, 2021 14:35:13 GMT
Hi Charles, I think your point about Chapman being miffed about someone else showing ingenuity is spot on. Thanks for all the pics on the Indy cars and their wings. The period from 1967 to 1973 was probably my favourite time for F1 and sports cars. The cars were really lovely to look at and the ingenuity and experimentation very exciting.
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Post by Carl on Nov 5, 2021 18:15:07 GMT
Here is a photo of Jim Clark driving the Vollstedt and i am certain that it is not at Riverside, also the car has a different style of "wing" on the exhausts, somewhat smaller in shape. So did Jim actually test the car before the Rex Mays 300 at Riverside, this photo would suggest that he did. Here is another photo of Jim in the car surrounded by team members and onlookers, is this Riverside? Finally we have a photo of Dan leading Jim both with very obvious aerodynamic aides on their respective cars, also interesting to see that USAC were actually ahead of F1 in adopting these devices. John, I believe Jim Clark drove the Vollstedt Indycar only over the Rex Mays 300 weekend at Riverside, during which the team tried two different rear wings. The first photo is without doubt the entrance of Turn 7 at Riverside and must have been taken during practice. Below are two photographs of the same place the following year, clearly showing the same white lines across the track and, in the background of the second, the straight between Turns 7 and 8 bypassed by USAC, which joined the back straight at Turn 7B. At one point in the film, broadcast commentator Chris Economaki refers to recent heavy rains, which always bring the high desert into bloom and explain the greenery adjacent to Clark in the first photo. I immediately recognized the garage building in the other photograph as one of two at Riverside.
In the photograph posted earlier of Jerry Grant's Eagle, I managed to overlook the presence of John Surtees' very fast Lola close behind, an intimidating sight in his mirrors not overlooked by Grant. Both Gurney and Grant had stub wings mounted either side of the nose, whereas the balance of Clark's Vollstedt must have been ideal without.
Cheers, Carl
Dan Gurney followed by Mark Donohue  in Roger Penske's privateer Eagle in 1968
Gurney and Mario Andretti 
Riverside track map  |
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Post by René on Nov 6, 2021 10:58:17 GMT
... also interesting to see that USAC were actually ahead of F1 in adopting these devices. Yes they obviously were. F1 became more technologically advanced than any series over the years but back then American race cars may have been more ahead pioneering aerodynamics. Just think of Jim Hall's Chaparral Can-Am cars. Could that have to do with the Americans being more ahead with aerospace engineering compared to Europe?
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Post by mikael on Nov 6, 2021 16:01:52 GMT
When internet-surfing/googling a bit, I came across an article, which narrates that the inverted aircraft wing actually was used first time by Opel already in 1928, on a rocket-propelled experimental "record" car.
The article mentions Jim Clark's experience with the Vollstedt car as well. Furthermore it's mentioned, but just in passing, that the McLaren Formula One team tested wings "with great success" in 1966.
Link:
Opel, 1928
Michael May (Switzerland), 1956
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Post by mikael on Nov 6, 2021 17:04:17 GMT
I actually came across a photo of the mentioned 1966 McLaren wing test, at nowhere else but at the very same Riverside Circuit!
Text from the source site: Bruce testing M2A Ford at Riverside, California during a Firestone tyre test in early 1966. M2A entirely Mallite, M2B used Mallite inner, and aluminium outer skins. Note the wing mount…wing first tested at Zandvoort 1965. L>R: Bruce McLaren, Gary Knutson, Howden Ganley and Wally Willmott (Tyler Alexander)
Link to the source:
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Post by Carl on Nov 6, 2021 17:49:36 GMT
... also interesting to see that USAC were actually ahead of F1 in adopting these devices. Yes they obviously were. F1 became more technologically advanced than any series over the years but back then American race cars may have been more ahead pioneering aerodynamics. Just think of Jim Hall's Chaparral Can-Am cars. Could that have to do with the Americans being more ahead with aerospace engineering compared to Europe?
René, These two Chaparrals reveal a warped sense of humor within GM engineering rather than real advances. The two most advanced Chaparrals, considering time and place, were the 2E and 2F. Although extremely fast everywhere, they were impeded by an automatic transmission prone to failure. General Motors would have gotten only halfway to the moon... 
Cheers, Carl
Jim Hall leads Phil Hill at Laguna Seca 
The 2F at the Nurburgring  |
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Post by Carl on Nov 6, 2021 18:53:20 GMT
I actually came across a photo of the mentioned 1966 McLaren wing test, at nowhere else but at the very same Riverside Circuit!
Text from the source site: Bruce testing M2A Ford at Riverside, California during a Firestone tyre test in early 1966. M2A entirely Mallite, M2B used Mallite inner, and aluminium outer skins. Note the wing mount…wing first tested at Zandvoort 1965. L>R: Bruce McLaren, Gary Knutson, Howden Ganley and Wally Willmott (Tyler Alexander)
Link to the source:
Mikael, Well done! Robin Herd used advanced aircraft construction material for the M2A and included a rear wing that allowed a consistent three second lap time advantage at Zandvoort. For some reason, the wing was removed and never appeared in Formula One. Herd says major problems with the quad-cam Ford engine discouraged the team from pursuing radical innovation elsewhere, at the price of a huge missed opportunity! -Carl |
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