Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos

[René]

First of all, congratulations to Max Verstappen. This was his strongest weekend so far so the win was more than deserved. I am not a Verstappen fan but that was simply very, very good driving.

Pierre's second place finish was nothing less than a feel good story, wonderful stuff. And hats off to Carlos Sainz with another top class drive.

And then Ferrari... Mama Mia, or how Autosprint calls it: "Ferrharakiri"! What a disaster.


Clearly Seb's mistake.

I actually tend to agree with JC. I have always liked Sebastian, as a person and for his genuine Ferrari passion. I really want(ed) him to succeed with Ferrari and win that fifth title in red. But I don't see it happening anymore to be honest and Charles is clearly the future for Ferrari. Putting all their cards on Leclerc is probably the wisest thing they can do now.

I just read an opinion piece in Italian Autosprint (with a little help from Google ) and it expresses exactly the same sentiment. Seb has made too many mistakes and his credit is gone. Binotto should be firm and tell Seb to either obey orders and play second man to Leclerc if needed or leave the team. It even says that Enzo would have never ever accepted the mistakes Sebastian made as the lead driver. 

Vettel's credit with the Italian press is almost down to zero...

What a shame though.

[Deleted]

I'm disappointed guys both in what happened and what is perhaps some over reaction here.

For sure Seb is to blame for this fratricide at Ferrari, but Leclerc seems to be again be let off.

Whilst i agree he was innocent in that particular Ferrari on Ferrari crime, Vettel's drift to the left was hardly comparable with Leclerc's swipe at Norris earlier on, in which contact was avoided only by Norris' awareness. Even though the outcome of the Vettel/Leclerc incident was so much worse. It's not as if Leclerc hasn't been swerving at people fairly consistently this season.

How soon Monaco, UK, Italy, Japan and even earlier this race are forgotten. I don't even mean this to have a go at Leclerc, they're all swerving about, it's just that certain people attract more comment whilst others seem to barely get a mention. It gets a bit wearing.

Its also not as if clashes between teammates are unheard of... just off the top of my head in a few seconds

GRO/MAG (a few times i seem to remember... unless it was Ericsson )
VER/RIC Baku
VER/RIC Hungary
VET/WEB
HAM/ROS
BUT/HAM

Lets calm down a bit from the disappointment first before we talk about terminating contracts etc huh? And Turkey was nine years ago... most of the drivers we love had careers that lasted fewer racers than there have been between those two events.

I just...lets have a little perspective eh?

Yes it was disappointing, yes it was a stupid mistake and its disappointing but all the drivers are swerving about like its dodgems since Prost and Senna made it de rigueur.

I'm sorry to be incredulous but Magnussen?

A solid number 2?

Really?

"The most dangerous guy i've every raced with" Magnussen?

"I will give everything. I will die in the car" Magnussen?

The one that people were claiming left and right last year was trying to kill them?

www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f1/11353884/gasly-and-magnussen-clash-in-baku

The speed with which a very large number of people jump on Vettel these days is pretty disappointing, and heaven knows there's enough of it elsewhere, a more measured response has been for me one of the main points for being here.

[Carl]

Joe,

         Sometimes the measured response is to criticize haughty self-regard. The whole point of referring to Turkey in 2010 was exactly that nothing had changed. Martin Brundle mentioned the two incidents and noted the same immediate insistence of innocence.

         Dire straits bring out the best in some and in others a weakness for which a dispensation routinely granted to top athletes more than one great driver has had cause to be grateful ...and likely were not.

Cheers, Carl

[robmarsh]

Hi Joe

I think that there are measured responses on here. Whilst everybody has their favourites none of those favourites are sacred cows like on other sites.

Seb has had plenty of support on here especially by René and myself as Ferrari supporters but there does come a time when even the most ardent supporter must wonder why there are so many mistakes. Seb is desperate to win a title for Ferrari. He has had two excellent chances in the past two years and the team have somehow contrived to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Along comes a real hotshoe in the form of Charles Leclerc who has no baggage with regard to driving for Ferrari, is as tough as nails,and he doubles Seb's task. Seb consequently tries harder to the point of overdriving and making mistakes and the downward spiral continues.

Nobody here is wishing or wanting Seb's career to end, he is too likeable for that. All that they are saying is it's time to review the dream and perhaps for the benefit of both Ferrari and Seb part company. Look how well Gasly has done since going back to Torro Rosso. Seb is a great driver, you don't win four WDCs by being ordinary, but perhaps the pressure of driving for Ferrari is not an environment that he thrives in. He is a very private person and Ferrari is not the place for that.

Rob

[chrisb]

well I am not a Ferrari fan, I like Seb, he is cool - outside of the cockpit that is- and another who wants to win at any cost inside it, I can't see Ferrari getting rid of him as yet and forsee another year of turmoil next year, as the 'older' driver is being outdriven by the younger star, something that happens in any sport and it is a reality. I just think Seb needs a Niki, gosh how much I miss him, to tap Seb on the shoulder and remind him [teach him?] this is how to win a WDC when you are up against a younger and very quick driver. 


aside from all this I watched the highlights on utub and Max was pretty impressive, but I honestly thought Croft's trousers had caught fire the way he got hysterical, and Sainz was very good, but a bit too much argybargy for my tastes, a welcome result for Gasly but I am still to be convinced by him, whereas Albon I am impressed by and I was with Lewis putting his hand up, although wonder had they been fighting for the championship would he have done so then? but thought that was a real shame, but suspect this young man to be on top of the tree shortly. Some poor drives and some nondescript drivers,

Magnusson at Ferrari? it may work, in fact it would be quite interesting because he ain't no slouch he can get a car home when he isn't crashing with his team-mate whose retention of next years seat has puzzled me, but maybe that might put Ferrari off, with my favourite the Hulk seemingly giving up and looking at sports cars next year I am encouraged by the youngesters and their attitudes, hope yet? but for crying out loud get rid of DRS - what a bore

[René]

Nov 19, 2019 6:55:41 GMT robmarsh said:

Hi Joe

I think that there are measured responses on here. Whilst everybody has their favourites none of those favourites are sacred cows like on other sites.

Seb has had plenty of support on here especially by René and myself as Ferrari supporters but there does come a time when even the most ardent supporter must wonder why there are so many mistakes. Seb is desperate to win a title for Ferrari. He has had two excellent chances in the past two years and the team have somehow contrived to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Along comes a real hotshoe in the form of Charles Leclerc who has no baggage with regard to driving for Ferrari, is as tough as nails,and he doubles Seb's task. Seb consequently tries harder to the point of overdriving and making mistakes and the downward spiral continues.

Nobody here is wishing or wanting Seb's career to end, he is too likeable for that. All that they are saying is it's time to review the dream and perhaps for the benefit of both Ferrari and Seb part company. Look how well Gasly has done since going back to Torro Rosso. Seb is a great driver, you don't win four WDCs by being ordinary, but perhaps the pressure of driving for Ferrari is not an environment that he thrives in. He is a very private person and Ferrari is not the place for that.

Rob

For sure one of the most measured replies so far!

[robmarsh]

I would love to see Albon or Bottas at Ferrari.

[charleselan]

Firstly I would like to stress that my earlier comment was one of pragmatism with reference to Ferrari and how it moves forward, it wasn't a "pop" at Sebastian as one sees on so many other internet sites. I stated quite clearly that some might not like what I had written and that was my opinion as to how any logical manager would perceive the way the team should be moving.

If people care to look at my previous submissions it will become apparent that i have been critical of Sebastian in the past and also supportive; I try to be as balanced as I can in the written form. Without wishing to act as Queens Counsel (high ranking legal brief in the UK) one could produce a somewhat damning document with regard to Sebastian's career with regard to questionable moves made and errors of judgement, but I do not need to do so as it is all out there for one to research. The point here being that as a four time world champion it does raise questions about his mindset. In all of the past 50 years that I have been passionate about motor sport I have seen many of the modern day greats and very few of them contrived to have such lapses, so where does that place him?

To my way of thinking Charles Leclerc is one of the brightest young talents I have seen in a long while, and along with that I see a decent lad who is also painfully honest in his own personal appraisal. After qualifying at Interlagos he was interviewed and he was brutally honest about his own performance and not for the first time either. This for me harks back to the drivers of the past who more often than not were of a similar disposition when all was not well, a stark contrast to many over the past two decades.

If Ferrari management cannot see that Leclerc is their future then I am lost for words; maybe they should take a leaf out of the Fizzy Drinks team's outlook where they throw everything at their chosen one, both present and past. Sebastian went to Ferrari with a dream of emulating his idol Schumacher, but unlike Michael he did not take his team with him and this is where it came undone. I still maintain that when he made this move from RB to Ferrari he thought Adrian Newey, and even possibly Christian Horner, were going with him; sadly Adrian has previous in letting people down in that regard, and did so again.

Sebastian tried valiantly to achieve his dream without those individuals but the team came up short, and on occasions so did he. Therefore it is time he moved on by his own volition either into retirement as Mark Webber once suggested or to another team and challenge. Ferrari are never going to win with both Charles and Sebastian in the team together and that is a fact.

This is why the team need to look at their past success and see that they need a balanced driver line up with a guy who is number one (maybe not by definition but in sheer speed) and an experienced resolute and quick second driver, which in theory is what MB have. My idea of it being someone like Kevin Magnussen (the most dangerous driver in F1) or Nico Hulkenburg was based on that premise. As a driver Kevin was highly rated by Jensen Button and that is good enough for me, he is resolute in defence and is as hard as nails just like his fellow countrymen in motorcycle Speedway which I am certain Mikael will also vouch for. Anyway i don't see him as any more "dangerous" than late lungers like Ricciardo who only got away with that in the outstanding RB chassis and compliant other drivers, not so easy now though is it!

Sorry Joe I cannot agree that Alain Prost was guilty of unethical driving of any sort. I wasn't a big fan of Alain's, much more so Ayrton even with all of his antics but he was as fair as anyone I have ever seen, he only resorted to doing something uncharacteristic due to severe provocation from Mr Senna and it was as clumsy as can be. Senna's move on him at Suzuka however was something that I could never forgive and tarnished Ayrton beyond redemption, even if he was indignant that he had been set up by Balestre and the FIA, no excuse period!

[robmarsh]

There is an interesting post by Mark Hughes on the MotorSport site in reply to one of the many posts about Hamilton's position in the pantheon of greats. In it he takes a view of what this year's results may have looked like had Ferrari had better race management, better luck, reliability and no driver errors.

The results would give Charles nine wins,Lewis six, Seb two, Valteri two and Max one. Although this is on a what if basis it does put Charles in with a realistic potential to have been WDC in 2019. John Charles made such a prediction before the season started and it does show that Leclerc is a real talent that Ferrari would be very silly to lose. Seb may have to accept no 2 status now just like Kimi did if he wants to stay.

I don't think Ferrari will have a problem getting another driver should Seb resign. 

[charleselan]

Nov 19, 2019 17:55:19 GMT robmarsh said:

There is an interesting post by Mark Hughes on the MotorSport site in reply to one of the many posts about Hamilton's position in the pantheon of greats. In it he takes a view of what this year's results may have looked like had Ferrari had better race management, better luck, reliability and no driver errors.

The results would give Charles nine wins,Lewis six, Seb two, Valteri two and Max one. Although this is on a what if basis it does put Charles in with a realistic potential to have been WDC in 2019. John Charles made such a prediction before the season started and it does show that Leclerc is a real talent that Ferrari would be very silly to lose. Seb may have to accept no 2 status now just like Kimi did if he wants to stay.

I don't think Ferrari will have a problem getting another driver should Seb resign. 

I haven't seen that article or comment by Mark Hughes, Rob; however it looks to be an interesting bit of whataboutery. As you mention I did indeed predict that Charles Leclerc would be WC in 2019 with the caveat that Ferrari provided him with the car to do so. I made that not as a matter of emotion but based upon what I saw, as you rightly state the young man is the "real deal".

Earlier in the week I observed a few online rumours the Ferrari were courting Tonto and Lewis Hamilton for 2021, now if Charles is still at the Scuderia in 2021 that isn't a marriage made in heaven. Probably just idle gossip but can anyone of right mind imagine Hamilton being happy with Leclerc as a team mate no matter how much he professes to not care who is in the other car, if he thinks it was bad with Rosberg Jnr then just look out if it is young Charles. On the opposite side I do not think Charles would be too enamoured at having Tonto sticking his oar in and pushing his favourite forward all the time.

Personally I have a feeling we are going to have more of the same in 2021, however the overriding thought is that the Fizzy Drink team are going to be the ones MB really have to worry about, especially with that miraculous Honda power unit.  My goodness did McLaren drop the ball with that, and Chubby Brown should hang his head in shame for allowing Teflonso to dictate choices at McLaren. That being said I have a feeling that with Benz power units in 2021 McLaren are going to make further strides along with James Key designed chassis and that exceptional driver line up.

[René]

Yes, Charles Leclerc is the real deal. No question.

However, I still hope Sebastian will have a good season next year with Ferrari (I am sure he will stay) and the team finds a better balance to work from. I personally would find it very disappointing and rather depressing if Seb's Ferrari years would end sour. He wouldn't deserve that based on his passion for the Scuderia and his working ethic. But can he still win a title with Leclerc as teammate? Hmmm, difficult. Impossible? No but then the car should be very good and really suit his driving style.

Only one chance left for Sebastian to win a title in red.



Seb driving Berger's 1988 Ferrari at the Red Bull Ring in 2014.

[robmarsh]

I always liked the look of the Ferrari F187/88.

[mikael]

A beautiful car indeed, the '88 Ferrari. But now in 2019, the lack of a "tall" air intake is conspicious. It might be a "leftover" from the rule that was introduced for the '76 season, when those tall air intakes disappeared.

But thinking about it, I don't recall - if I ever understood in the first place - why those air boxes were banned from the '76 season and onwards. They could not have induced any danger of any sort; and the cars actually looked good with them - that's what I always thought ...

By the way, they reappeared the following year, in '89, right? in a not-so-tall version.

[charleselan]

Nov 20, 2019 20:07:43 GMT René said:

Yes, Charles Leclerc is the real deal. No question.

However, I still hope Sebastian will have a good season next year with Ferrari (I am sure he will stay) and the team finds a better balance to work from. I personally would find it very disappointing and rather depressing if Seb's Ferrari years would end sour. He wouldn't deserve that based on his passion for the Scuderia and his working ethic. But can he still win a title with Leclerc as teammate? Hmmm, difficult. Impossible? No but then the car should be very good and really suit his driving style.

Only one chance left for Sebastian to win a title in red.



Seb driving Berger's 1988 Ferrari at the Red Bull Ring in 2014.

Oh! Yes that 1988 Ferrari was a beauty alright as were several of its predecessors except the horrendous version from 1986 which I believe had a much higher rear bodywork section and much to its detriment. I think that the 1988 car was from the pen of the gifted Gustav Brunner, he of Formula Two Maurer fame; also note the similarity between this Ferrari and the Rial he designed later.

I do believe that the high air-boxes were banned in 1976 on spurious safety grounds, later to be reintroduced when the naturally aspirated rules for F1 came into being in 1989. I seem to recall the teams pushing for this (and no doubt "Arthur"* Ecclestone) as it offered greater space for advertising/sponsorship/

* To those not familiar with UK TV in the 1980's there was a well known character in a series called "Minder" who was the ultimate "wheeler dealer" by the name of Arthur Daley, the name of which is to this day commonly linked with such people.

[robmarsh]

I liked Minder though Arthur was not my favourite character. I preferred the long suffering character played by Denis Waterman.