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Post by Carl on Aug 4, 2019 20:42:34 GMT
It wasn’t a bad race though Carl and far from a foregone conclusion that Hamilton would win. Bit of a tactical gamble from Merc and it paid off .....Verstappen really looks like the real deal now though doesn’t he. Yes, and I will watch it, albeit with reduced anticipation. The Associated Press behaves like the busybody who divulges the plot of the movie you've been planning to see. And I was foolish enough to pay attention...
I know that tyre choice decided the race, as it often does nowadays. I don't know, but have absolute faith, that David Croft babbled foolishly and laughed at his jokes while Martin Brundle moaned silently.
But I hope to enjoy a close contest between the two fastest drivers.  |
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Post by Carl on Aug 5, 2019 0:34:25 GMT
I also meant to add that the on-board radio comments very rarely seem to show the drivers in a good light (any of them) and I’m sure they edit these to only show the contentious stuff.....I do think our past hero’s would be equally petulant if radio comment was available back then, the adrenaline running through a racing driver at peak stress must be immense and they’re just venting most of the time I feel. It always makes me smile how thankful and complimentary they are after the checkered flag when moments before they’ve been ranting over something or another 😆 You may be right, Jamie, but I think the stalwarts of past seasons would have rejected the notion of remote control of race strategy and radio messages as intrusions. Once the race started, pit board information was all they wanted. Deciding what to do, when to press and when to conserve your equipment, was part of driving. Sometimes I think today's drivers are so stressed because they aren't left alone. Driving has become so complicated that it must be shared with a dozen engineers. I'll wager none of us want anyone instructing how we should drive  |
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Post by Carl on Aug 5, 2019 0:50:27 GMT
Jamie, you were right. Even knowing who would win and how, the race was very exciting to watch.
Lewis Hamilton was relentless in pursuit and even Max Verstappen was smiling about a disappointing result which arose from close and intense competition. We learned that David Croft is familiar with every Basil Fawlty utterance, which explains a lot. |
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Post by chrisb on Aug 5, 2019 4:46:29 GMT
What a dilemma - cricket the Ashes, MotoGP, BSB, Liverpool FC and a Grand Prix, probably explains my headache yesterday afternoon, fortunately with two computers I could watch two things at once, multi-task? pah, easy, but my priority was MotoGP, so pleased with the qualifying so dreadful were the results, more elsewhere, the Ashes - with a bowler short and a captain's strange choices that became a silence, the football - was a disaster and i just hope this isn't a trend that the 'pool will follow, BSB a great 1st race, bit scrappy and at times really quite hairy, that is one quick circuit, but again, more elsewhere, but the 2nd race! and then there was F1,
started to watch the C4 highlights, but got distracted, so watched the utub highlights, arghh, instant regrets, what has happened to Crofty?? now I understand what everyone says of him, that was dreadful, seems they feed him an illicit drug devised in WW2 to elevate adrenalin, no other explanation is plausible, but the race, MB got it right , the others didn't, missed Niki, but Ferrari, are you now the 3rd team? some good drives, and some young guns who are shining bright, but,
I did ask myself what people thought of the opening lap with Bottas, one wonders if he is a victim or a good number two racing driver. I did ask myself the question would a hungrier more aggressive driver defended more confidently, I wasn't sure but then is he considering his future in any wheel - to - wheel combat with his team-leader, I wonder
The radio is an interesting topic I feel, when I am on the bike doing my Rospa training I am linked to the trainer and it is ok, but try that when I am 'playing' in say France and you may well not appreciate the reaction, it does make me think this is more a generation thing, this is how the modern F1 driver conducts himself, but I do question the 'motivating' statements, for crying out loud if you are not motivated what on earth are you doing in F1-
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Post by mikael on Aug 5, 2019 8:02:14 GMT
Really a milestone for Honda - as well as for Max Verstappen - with the pole position.
Yes, strange to think about: just 21 years of age (approaching 22), yet closing in on five completed seasons in F1 and more than 100 GP's.
Another curious fact (which I, admittedly, have touched upon repeatedly) is that he's the only former Karting World Champion - out of a very long list - who has ever been this successful in F1.
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Post by robmarsh on Aug 5, 2019 9:19:00 GMT
Enjoyed the race immensely. Nice to see the teams having to think on their feet for two weeks in a row. Excellent drives by Max and Lewis though like others I don't see why they have to keep motivating him, I would be embarrassed. I still think the ship to shore radio comms should be limited.
I didn't mind who won out of the two. My favourites were trundling around in their matte red SUVs a minute or more behind.
Good drive by Sainz. I feel for Gazly and Bottas as their tenure in their current teams look very limited.
I love watching the interplay between the two McLaren lads and the fun and bantering between the three English rookies. Maybe the hate your teammate and fellow driver pendulum is swinging back to normality.
Not as worn out from watching F1 this year as I was by summer break last year. Maybe Ferrari's poor results have something to do with it. Charles Leclerc still making mistakes, maybe driving the Ferrari on the limit is impossible and Seb's mistakes may have been caused by that as well as some driver error.
I am glad I am not the only one who finds Moto GP not so good this year. I don't think I will watch the recording.
Glad to see Mick Schumacher standing on the top step. At this point I don't think he has the outright pace his father had, he may be more like his uncle. I hope to be proved wrong.
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Post by charleselan on Aug 5, 2019 11:01:38 GMT
Some great points there John and to pick up on two of them.....I to am slightly less in love with MotoGP than I was at the start of the season, MM is just dominating to the detriment of the spectacle, not his fault of course, but it’s not as exciting as it has been presently. And George Russel has a very impressive weekend indeed, he must be quite a hot property at the moment. Thanks Jamie. MotoGP has really lost something this year and is not compelling. O.K. Marquez is dominating far too much and one has to admit that he is riding exceptionally well on a bike tailored to him. I would also suggest that the opposition is not up to scratch either which doesn't help. Ducati made a huge mistake in not doing their utmost to keep Lorenzo as he was the driving force in that team and was in possession of that little bit more edge than Dovi. Yamaha are all at sea with the two factory riders completely at loggerheads, with one now past his best and the other far too fragile. Back to F1 and it is so good to see those three lads from the UK so obviously impressive. All of them have huge futures and will ensure that it won't be an exclusive Max and Charles show over the coming years. |
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Post by charleselan on Aug 5, 2019 11:35:16 GMT
Some further musings following what has been mentioned above, and other thoughts.
I fully agree Rob that the interaction between the two McLaren boys is so good to see, they really do get on well and it is to both their credit that they do show such genuine friendship. All of which is good for the team moral after those toxic recent years. I must admit that initially I thought that Lando Norris was being overhyped, but he really is a talented young man and produced a superb maiden season.
It looked to me that when interviewed after the race Bottas is now resigned to loosing his seat at MB, sad in a way but there is no hiding place in modern sport. However he is a very good driver and deserves to be in F1, in all probability he will return to Williams but as curve ball wouldn't he make a great number two at the Fizzy Drinks team.
Pierre Gasly showed so much promise last year but has just not got to grips with FD Special, not helped by having Max as a team mate of course. I also think he is too good to just be dispensed with in F1, but where would he fit in as i cannot see him returning to Toro Rosso with its current line up being retained.
I still maintain that MB should fit George Russell into that second car alongside Lewis Hamilton next year as I feel he is better than Ocon. Esteban is a very good driver but he didn't exactly blow the doors off Perez when teamed with him, and I have the feeling that Russell would do that comprehensively. I would suggest that Esteban will end up at Renault next season as Nico looks as though he has had enough and will probably throw in his lot with Haas.
I thought that the S*YF1 commentary was absolutely dire this past weekend; Brundle was stale and lacklustre and Croft was quite simply a buffoon. While enjoying Kevin Mag's resolute defence against Ricciardo, Croft was heard to call into question his defensive moves, which Brundle then said he would like to see again. Complete nonsense as the initial defence was hard and fair with just one move. Anyone else would have been praised by these two for such defence, but no Kevin had to be called into question because of who he is.
Brundle also called out Charles Leclerc for making too many mistakes this year; pray tell me Martin how many has Max made in the past four years as a comparison? A fast young driver is going to make mistakes especially when in a team like Ferrari and when up against a four time World champion who has been given the nod this year. If the team management at Ferrari think this is clever then next year isn't going to be pretty.
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Post by Jamie on Aug 5, 2019 16:30:25 GMT
I also meant to add that the on-board radio comments very rarely seem to show the drivers in a good light (any of them) and I’m sure they edit these to only show the contentious stuff.....I do think our past hero’s would be equally petulant if radio comment was available back then, the adrenaline running through a racing driver at peak stress must be immense and they’re just venting most of the time I feel. It always makes me smile how thankful and complimentary they are after the checkered flag when moments before they’ve been ranting over something or another 😆 You may be right, Jamie, but I think the stalwarts of past seasons would have rejected the notion of remote control of race strategy and radio messages as intrusions. Once the race started, pit board information was all they wanted. Deciding what to do, when to press and when to conserve your equipment, was part of driving. Sometimes I think today's drivers are so stressed because they aren't left alone. Driving has become so complicated that it must be shared with a dozen engineers. I'll wager none of us want anyone instructing how we should drive I quite agree Carl, I’d get rid of the radio communication right now given the choice but I suppose the drivers work with what their given now. If I were a current driver, I wouldn’t want my utterances broadcast to the world that’s for sure.....I used to partake in some extremely fruity language in my karting days whilst under pressure, it was all for my own benefit though and that’s my point, it’s unfair on modern drivers to be picked up on these petulant, spiteful sounding comments when it’s just venting under extreme stress. I’m sure, as was the case in my own experience, that they wouldn’t think of making such comments under normal circumstances. I don’t like the driver coaching stuff though, just let them get on with it! Some great comments on this thread, enthusiasm for modern F1 has had a resurgence with the last few races! Just wish we had Ferrari up there......I know this circuit was a bad one for their current package, but to finish a minute behind.......and to be winless as we go into the summer break, the halcyon day of the Barcelona tests seem an awfully long way behind us now. As mentioned, the respect and banter between the three English rookies, and Lando and Carlos, is great to see. This is how sporting rivalry should be......we’re not curing cancer here, motorsport should be fun! |
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Post by Carl on Aug 5, 2019 16:37:20 GMT
I thought that the S*YF1 commentary was absolutely dire this past weekend; Brundle was stale and lacklustre and Croft was quite simply a buffoon. While enjoying Kevin Mag's resolute defence against Ricciardo, Croft was heard to call into question his defensive moves, which Brundle then said he would like to see again. Complete nonsense as the initial defence was hard and fair with just one move. Anyone else would have been praised by these two for such defence, but no Kevin had to be called into question because of who he is. Brundle also called out Charles Leclerc for making too many mistakes this year; pray tell me Martin how many has Max made in the past four years as a comparison? A fast young driver is going to make mistakes especially when in a team like Ferrari and when up against a four time World champion who has been given the nod this year. If the team management at Ferrari think this is clever then next year isn't going to be pretty. There must be a place for David Croft in politics considering the preponderance of idiocy on both sides of the Atlantic. At one point around mid-race, Haas had its drivers change positions and it was smoothly done. The #20 on his halo made it obvious Kevin Magnussen was passing Romain Grosjean, but the Sky brain trust were convinced otherwise, even deciding the onscreen graphic showing Magnussen ahead was wrong.
While simple mistakes are normal for David Croft, Martin Brundle must not have slept well.  |
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Post by robmarsh on Aug 5, 2019 17:25:36 GMT
The thought of George Russell going to Mercedes is mouth watering, nearly as good as Charles to Ferrari was this year. I think there is a lot of steel in GR and it would not take long to show.
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Post by Jamie on Aug 5, 2019 18:32:41 GMT
br]
Another curious fact (which I, admittedly, have touched upon repeatedly) is that he's the only former Karting World Champion - out of a very long list - who has ever been this successful in F1.
[/quote]
That’s a good point, the only other one I can think of who was relatively successful is Ricardo Patrese. That is a real anomaly come to think of it 🤔
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Post by charleselan on Aug 6, 2019 11:42:26 GMT
I thought that the S*YF1 commentary was absolutely dire this past weekend; Brundle was stale and lacklustre and Croft was quite simply a buffoon. While enjoying Kevin Mag's resolute defence against Ricciardo, Croft was heard to call into question his defensive moves, which Brundle then said he would like to see again. Complete nonsense as the initial defence was hard and fair with just one move. Anyone else would have been praised by these two for such defence, but no Kevin had to be called into question because of who he is. Brundle also called out Charles Leclerc for making too many mistakes this year; pray tell me Martin how many has Max made in the past four years as a comparison? A fast young driver is going to make mistakes especially when in a team like Ferrari and when up against a four time World champion who has been given the nod this year. If the team management at Ferrari think this is clever then next year isn't going to be pretty. There must be a place for David Croft in politics considering the preponderance of idiocy on both sides of the Atlantic. At one point around mid-race, Haas had its drivers change positions and it was smoothly done. The #20 on his halo made it obvious Kevin Magnussen was passing Romain Grosjean, but the Sky brain trust were convinced otherwise, even deciding the onscreen graphic showing Magnussen ahead was wrong.
While simple mistakes are normal for David Croft, Martin Brundle must not have slept well. Maybe Buffoonery is catching Carl; for as you mention it appears to be the case either side of the Atlantic in politics and now that description can be levelled at David Croft. He really was unbelievably poor over the past weekend, and all the time passing himself, with the aid of his fellow presenters, as an expert on Formula One! Another of his incredibly irritating comments came on Saturday during qualifying where he stated with authority that Lewis Hamilton had now won more F1 races than Jim Clark; Alain Prost and someone else (can't remember who) had won Grand Prix combined. What bloody relevance or credibility can be associated with a comment like that which is just a pure statistic that bears no comparison. If he had said that Hamilton had won a certain percentage of races he had raced in and then the same for Jim Clark we would have seen the real comparison. Not certain about Martin Brundle's sleep pattern, he wasn't very impressive either in my opinion. He also looks awkward when one of the stooges in paddock discussion, he doesn't appear relaxed, almost stiff in stature. When I compare these guys with the BSB Eurosport team it becomes even more apparent, all of them are relaxed, fully engaged and bursting with information and knowledge. |
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Post by robmarsh on Aug 7, 2019 7:06:12 GMT
It is difficult to compare drivers from one era to another except statistically and the win percentage per number of starts is probably the most accurate. Even so it does need a tweak to adjust for the better reliability of the modern cars and the number of races. Mikael is better than me at this as advanced maths was not my strong point but I have come up with a quick and dirty method.
Assuming that Clark and Hamilton would drive for Mercedes and Lotus respectively given the view that they were/are the best drivers at the time then the following may work.
(((Clark's win percentage x Hamilton's race starts) x Clark's finishing percentage) + ((Clark's win percentage x Clark's race starts) × Hamilton's finishing percentage) ÷2 )
For Hamilton's stats then just replace Clark's name with Hamilton and vice versa. The last time I did this was before RRT was formed and Clark was comfortably ahead.
I have updated it with the following stats:
Clark 72 starts, 25 wins, 22 retirements. This gave a win percentage of 34.7 and a finishing percentage of 69.4
Hamilton 241 starts, 81 wins, 22 retirements. This gave a win percentage of 33.6 and a finishing percentage of 90.8.
After applying those figures to my formula above I came up with Clark at 68 wins and Hamilton 50 wins as an average if both drivers had the same opportunities. Clark still comfortably ahead.
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Post by mikael on Aug 7, 2019 14:02:21 GMT
It's an interesting idea to adjust the win rate with reliability the way you do, Rob. It's an interesting observation also that Clark and Hamilton have the same number of retirements, but in Hamilton's case, it's by more than three times as many starts as Clark had.
It's a sign of progress, for sure, that the engines have become so robust and long-lived. On the other hand, it adds greatly to the excitement when they are not that reliable but really are on the limit and fully "squeezed".
I wonder in what period/era the engines typically were at their most fragile state ... In the mid/late 90's, when the engine makers pushed the 20.000 rpm limit, cars sitting on the trackside with a blown engine was such a familiar sight. (So many of Jan Magnussen's GP's ended in this way, I seem to recall ...)
I was about to say that the present excellent reliability may be due to the maximum fuel flow-rate limit, which efficiently "caps" the straining of the engine -- but it might not be so simple, because they then (most likely) run with a very meager air-fuel mixture, which isn't too "healthy" for the engine. In whatever way, it's impressive how effectively the teams are in "control" of these extremely complex engines.
Jan Magnussen out - with a blown engine.
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