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Post by Carl on Jul 3, 2019 17:12:21 GMT
I also noted the resemblance of expression on the podium and thought it was haunting. And I wonder if Mark Hughes, after his strong objections to the penalty assessed in Canada that inspired equally strong disagreement online, may have been inclined to follow suit for the appearance of consistency. Could he have bent somewhat to avoid the fierce wind he'd already felt?
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I just read his race report and suspect Mark Hughes may have resorted to a coin-toss, so fine is the line that exists between "hard but fair" and an overly aggressive punting across track boundaries. It wasn't the blatant ego entitlement of Schumacher or Senna, but to me it appeared to be a choice made and opportunity seized.
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Post by chrisb on Jul 3, 2019 20:59:10 GMT
Mark's response to Max's overtake was 'hard but fair' - as usual his report is probably more entertaining than the race, which I have yet to motivate myself to watch, which is such a sad indictment of my levels of interest in modern F1, but looking at the MS forum there were over 200 responses to Mark's report, which is quite impressive, one wonders if that is more people than sxy had watching their show?
interesting debate chaps, as JC says what I do so like about this forum - apart from being eternally grateful for being invited- is that we can disagree, but we do so with such lovely decorum, I remember with laughter the jingoism of 1976 - c/w a full leg plaster courtesy of a broken leg and full arm crutches, oh how I laughed, but that seemed jolly, almost harmless by comparison to later as I did not like one bit Mansell's maniacs, who became overnight experts as to why Nigel was the greatest of them all, and fortified by the sponsors of the British GP products thought they could just walk over at 5 minutes to the start of the GP and takeover the viewing spots - needless to say a few choice words dissuaded them - and I stopped going for a time as it was nationalistic and you were unpatriotic if you didn't lavish praise on our Nige' which I managed to refrain from doing, although loved it when he dummied Piquet - always great entertainment when 'piqued' I did like him when he tigered, great fun
As for Max, bit like his Dad not easy to like, but he has determination and I think has been driving really well this year, much more with his head and from what I read saw an opportunity and grabbed it, but he does have that almost spoilt like behaviour at times, which puts him firmly in the Michael, Senna class, but I too have seen the photos of Charles, that man is impressive, and intelligent, he really is something special and he will be a great champion, I am betting he won't let that happen again, I do see honour in this guy something we treasure and had hoped for and it is coming, I do sense that when he does win - he will carry on, and I know Lewis is odds on this year but I am betting Charles will start rattling his cages before too long
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Post by robmarsh on Jul 4, 2019 7:32:43 GMT
A really good debate spread over a few days and many miles. I actually found the opportunity to air my views and have a mature and respectful discussion with some very knowledgeable people very cathartic and a good way to stop the anger at the sport boiling over. The level of discussion and decorum was light years away from the rabble rousers and ill-informed discussion that seems to frequent the MS forum.
I had forgotten about Max's move on Kimi at Spa but after Charles reminded me I remembered it with a shiver. An accident there, at that speed, could have quite easily put a car into the spectator area on the left of the track, with 1955 Le Mans consequences. Max should have been banned for that, lesser marketable drivers have.
Sunday's race, as the cars came round the final corner before lining up for the start, was the first time for many a year that I was actually shivering with anticipation. The reason, one Charles Leclerc on pole in a Ferrari with a good chance of winning the race. I seriously haven't felt this excited about a young driver since 1978 when GV was in a similar position. Although I was a very strong Senna fan it was a few years before I got fully behind him. It is different with Charles Leclerc. Maybe it is the combination of him driving for Ferrari and his ability and demeanour and old world charm that hides a steeliness that Max may learn to regret.
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Post by René on Jul 4, 2019 15:24:47 GMT
Yes, many great replies and observations. It's an absolute joy and privelege to share this with you all. It has really brought a new dimension to my life long passion and hobby.
Rob, I have exactly the same feeling re. Charles Leclerc. There is something special about him.
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Post by charleselan on Jul 5, 2019 16:54:40 GMT
I concur, a really wonderful discussion and so good to see it had some empowering affects upon maybe some jaded enthusiasm. Like it or not F1 is not really in the best of places right now, and for many reasons but we can all put the world to rights on RRT  . Charles Leclerc is certainly having a positive effect on us guys who have been following the sport for many a year. His speed and natural ability are a given, however it is the young mans demeanour and honesty that really is so compelling. There hasn't been a top flight F1 driver like this for many a year, it harks back to the time when a great driver didn't have to be full of himself or be too keen on throwing the toys out of the pram when things were not going well. What greater compliment could there be than likening Charles to Gilles in so many ways. OK he doesn't display the devil may care attitude of the great French Canadian but these are different times being less naive and far more technically restricted. Some have likened Max to Gilles, but that is way off mark as Gilles had little in common with Max as a personality or driver. I did read Mark Hughes' report in MS and I tend to think he tried to be too tied up in grey areas with regard to the incident, as he was with the Max/Kimi Spa incident. With rules and regulations you cannot afford to have grey areas, or even try to debate them, it has to be black & white. It is just the same as bringing up kids or educating them, grey areas do not work, they have to know clearly where the boundaries are, and they must be applied. Mark actually stated in his article that Charles should have known what to expect being on the outside, absolute tosh. He was on the track and alongside therefore it is incumbent upon Max, or the driver on the inside, to afford him the room. |
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Post by Carl on Jul 6, 2019 3:18:36 GMT
It is different with Charles Leclerc. Maybe it is the combination of him driving for Ferrari and his ability and demeanour and old world charm that hides a steeliness that Max may learn to regret. Well said, Rob. A severe lesson casually applied by Charles could cure both Verstappens of smirking disorder. On the other hand, I'd be delighted to have Max at his best behavior win a few world championships. |
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Post by chrisb on Jul 6, 2019 6:20:02 GMT
what is positive about F1 is the arrival of the likes of Charles, et al, they bring a lovely balanced enthusiasm that isn't ruthless nor cynical and for me that is what is appealing, and I do think in the future we will have a great battle between Max and Charles and I think you are spot on Rob when you say there is a steeliness to Charles that Max will not appreciate
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Post by René on Jul 6, 2019 10:25:52 GMT
It is different with Charles Leclerc. Maybe it is the combination of him driving for Ferrari and his ability and demeanour and old world charm that hides a steeliness that Max may learn to regret. Well said, Rob. A severe lesson casually applied by Charles could cure both Verstappens of smirking disorder. On the other hand, I'd be delighted to have Max at his best behavior win a few world championships. Max and Charles are practically the same age but, besides obvious different personalities, they have also had very different life experiences. Charles has gone through hardships that not many of his age have gone through. First losing family friend and role model Jules Bianchi and then not long after losing his father. These experiences will have learned Charles that life is not fair and nothing ever comes for granted. This shows in his demeanor. However, Max and Charles both will win more than one title. I am quite sure of that but I only hope they can do that in a healthy Formula One! |
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Post by charleselan on Jul 6, 2019 11:15:30 GMT
Coming back to my last two para's from my previous post, I am reminded of a situation back in 1977 at the Dutch GP in Zandvoort. Maximising the incredible road holding of the Lotus 78 Mario Andretti drove around the outside of James Hunt in the McLaren M26. James seemingly oblivious to such an audacious manoeuvre retook the racing line and the cars collided. Mr Hunt was not amused and annoyed saying to Mario "you don't overtake around the outside", Mario's simple reply "I overtake wherever I can", there ended the conversation.
I agree that Charles Leclerc's fine character has been bolstered by the tragic events that have affected his young life, however the common decency and polite manner were always there. The comments of a journalist a while ago recounting how he had received a letter from Charles thanking him for writing good things about him. This was something totally unexpected by this journalist and it left a seriously strong impression with him.
There can be little doubt that Charles & Max will be the main contenders over the coming years; there will also be some other seriously impressive other youngsters who may well join them if the signs shown by some others are to be fulfilled. The three young English lads have all been very impressive in their maiden season. I had thought that Lando Norris was rather overhyped over the past two years but he has been incredibly good so far, as had Alexander Albon who has certainly kept the acknowledged quick Kyvatt more than honest. George Russell sadly hasn't had the tools to show what he can really do, but his last outing was very impressive.
I would also say that Carlos Sainz Jnr has been hugely impressive in the last three races, something not gone unnoticed by Mark Hughes. So the future could be very bright, but things need changing within the sport to maximise this promise. For Charles to win championships he needs a Ferrari team that resembles the Todt/Brawn/Byrne/Schumacher era, not the shambles we now see. Currently I could see a poker player relishing the opportunity in playing against the Ferrari strategists.
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