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Post by René on Jun 29, 2019 11:41:02 GMT
I think Lewis will win this, all things being equal, but I’m hoping for something different.....and by different, I really mean a Leclerc win 😁 Some great pictures and videos above and, the same as René, it’s made me feel nostalgic for some real engine noise........I’m out shortly for a run in the Clio and will pop in the ‘into the red’ CD, scroll to the 312T3 and wallow in the sound of proper racing engines...... Leclerc is looking good so far so who knows! Enjoy your ride in the Clio and don't forget to put the volume on 10 when listening to the wonderful sounds of the flat 12!  |
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Post by René on Jun 29, 2019 15:53:36 GMT
FORZA FERRARI! FORZA CHARLES LECLERC!
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Post by René on Jun 30, 2019 22:12:35 GMT
Wow, what can one say!? From one of the worst races in F1 history on an empty test track in the south of France to a sensational race on a packed Spielberg Ring within a week! What a force of nature Max is. There was no stopping him today! The pass on Leclerc was on the edge but the win was well deserved. Equally so for Charles and my Ferrari heart broke when my countryman shattered that dream. It's difficult I can tell you. I really didn't want Max to pass Charles but on the other hand, we (The Netherlands) never had a race winner before and the Max madness in my country is unbelievable. Not only the more than 20.000 fans in Spielberg but so many people watching this live and even a packed concert hall in Amsterdam with another 20.000 watching the race on a huge screen. Insane: mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/ZiggoF1Live?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1145334161361768449&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gids.tv%2Fvideo%2F82954%2Fformule-1-reactie-ziggo-dome-na-inhaalactie-max-verstappenAnd what about Mercedes? Just an uncompetitive weekend or were they told to lose by the FIA? Another strong race for young Lando Norris. He is really making his mark as a strong racer. And again a weak performance by Pierre Gasly, he doesn't look confident. Very nice tribute to Niki Lauda by the way with the corner named after him and his cars on display. That was class. |
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Post by Carl on Jul 1, 2019 0:14:06 GMT
I'm not sure I entirely agree with the stewards. On the other hand, truth was elusive at Turn 3 today.
Verstappen certainly deserved to win and emphatically did not steer into Leclerc, but I wonder if he may have allowed momentum to take his car wide at just the wrong moment for the Ferrari. Often at critical moments over the years, drivers have been gently punted across track boundaries. Doing so is a skill some have practiced and perfected, but if contact was intended today, it was well concealed and, since doubt exists, the stewards' decision was correct.
Both drivers were magnificent and it's a shame only one could stand on the top step of the podium.
So wonderful a race may well have been engineered by the spirit of Niki Lauda.
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Post by René on Jul 1, 2019 14:40:45 GMT
I understand your hesitation re. the stewards decision Carl. It was on the edge but I agree with Mark Hughes this time (in his very insightful race report, as always) that it was a hard but fair move by Max.
Had there been no run-off at that corner but grass, gravel or a wall, then Charles would have given up sooner during that move or defended the inside line more strongly. But Charles preferred this line because it gave him a better exit speed for the next straight as he so brilliantly demonstrated the lap before. But there was a gap and Max braked deep and was completely alongside. Charles did not need to drive with him on the outside. But I was disappointed nonetheless. Happy for Max but I wanted the Leclerc/Ferrari win more to be honest. And reading Mark's report he confirmed the feeling I already had during the race that Ferrari played it too safe with Leclerc and should have given him more freedom to enlarge the gap to Bottas. That would have probably saved him at the end. Another race lost for Ferrari that they could have won. Yes, Mercedes is (too) strong but Ferrari could have won three races already (Bahrein, Canada, Austria) and evertything would look very different...
Still, a very deserved win either way and a great race to watch! Very enjoyable. I have the feeling we will see more direct Leclerc/Verstappen battles in the near future than the long awaited Hamilton/Vettel battles.
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Post by charleselan on Jul 1, 2019 15:54:16 GMT
I have held off from writing anything about the Max overtake as I wished to see what others here and elsewhere wrote. Much written elsewhere is predictable from the Uk based sites as there appears to be a caustic feeling about anything Ferrari. I am not a fan of the Maranello marque, or any other these days so would like to think I am unbiased.
I can understand that some found the 2019 Austrian Gp to be exciting, but the hyperbole of the S*Y F1 transmission and Croft in particular was truly beyond reality. O.K. Max drove a very good race in what was quite simply the best set up car for the day, and Ferrari played too safe with Charles early on in keeping him reined in, and not allowing him to run longer on tyres that were still in good shape and also quick. What this race did highlight however was the futility of that ridiculous "DRS" device, which actually ruined what would have been the real spectacle of a driver using skill to overtake, and giving the guy defending a fair chance of doing so.
Now with that little rant out of the way let me give my personal perspective on the "overtake". To me the stewards verdict matches up with what we now call in world political terms as "populism". I am in no doubt that had any other driver other than Max or Lewis have pulled that move then there would have been a penalty; period! There is a rule that you do not drive another competitor off the circuit, and that is what Max did to Charles.
In the post race "S*Y Pad" debrief Paul de Resta was attempting to make big the general feeling of the whole S*Y team that there should be no penalty. However as he was about to bring out his coup de gras, the onboard footage from Max's car, one could almost see the gears in his head working overtime. His main thrust was to be that Max had not adjusted the steering, which was true, as he didn't but what was apparent was that Verstappen had applied considerable lock to the right to counter a big dose of understeer brought about by his lunge into the corner.
It was this understeer that carried him out into Charles, colliding with the Ferrari and forcing it off circuit. Max also missed the apex of the corner upon entry by a considerable margin which compounded his mistake. Therefore taking these observations into consideration he should have been penalised. Contrary to some comments I have read elsewhere that Charles is whining, I do not believe so as he is too honest to be so, his demeanour after the race looked very like a great French Canadian at Imola in 1982.
Other than that a few further points about the race itself. MB were out of sorts and they suffered badly from the heat and high altitude which was good to see. The Mclaren's continued to impress with Lando Norris pulling off another fine drive, however Carlos Sainz Jnr was simply outstanding. Kimi was resolute early on and drove doggedly in a car that should be so much better, the parent company really need to get that team up to speed with some major backing. Also early on I noticed George Russell running with the Forced Stroll's and Toro Rosso cars, that boy is good.
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Post by mikael on Jul 1, 2019 23:16:02 GMT
Just would like to add a personal sentiment; that I'm very pleased on the behalf of Honda and the Red Bull-Honda cooperation. A victory - even if it remains to be just one - puts the project in a completely different perspective. One victory - or no victories; this really defines whether the project (of Honda) will be considered as a success or as a failure. Of course, the World Championship is the ultimate measure of success; but still, now, some years hence, Honda can say that their F1 hybrid/turbo project ultimately became a success.
In comparison, the F1 project of Toyota in the early 00's produced a number of 2nd and 3rd places, but not one single victory; and thus, in the public eye (as I sense it), it is considered a failure.
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Post by René on Jul 2, 2019 9:36:51 GMT
Now with that little rant out of the way let me give my personal perspective on the "overtake". To me the stewards verdict matches up with what we now call in world political terms as "populism". I am in no doubt that had any other driver other than Max or Lewis have pulled that move then there would have been a penalty; period! There is a rule that you do not drive another competitor off the circuit, and that is what Max did to Charles. In the post race "S*Y Pad" debrief Paul de Resta was attempting to make big the general feeling of the whole S*Y team that there should be no penalty. However as he was about to bring out his coup de gras, the onboard footage from Max's car, one could almost see the gears in his head working overtime. His main thrust was to be that Max had not adjusted the steering, which was true, as he didn't but what was apparent was that Verstappen had applied considerable lock to the right to counter a big dose of understeer brought about by his lunge into the corner. It was this understeer that carried him out into Charles, colliding with the Ferrari and forcing it off circuit. Max also missed the apex of the corner upon entry by a considerable margin which compounded his mistake. Therefore taking these observations into consideration he should have been penalised. Contrary to some comments I have read elsewhere that Charles is whining, I do not believe so as he is too honest to be so, his demeanour after the race looked very like a great French Canadian at Imola in 1982.
JC, I understand what you're saying although I am not in agreement with your view that only Max or Lewis would 'get away' with a move like this. The move was on the limit of what is acceptable, I agree with that but taking the win away from Max (what in effect any penalty would have done) would have been too much for me. Even when I really wanted Charles to win.
Many ex drivers thought the move was harsh but acceptable. Also Jan Lammers who had the same view that Charles would have given up the corner earlier had there been no run-off tarmac.
Max does remind of Senna and Schumacher more than any other young driver of late. Very talented, fast, driven and always on the edge of what is still sportsmanlike which doesn't always make him the most likeable person. But he does bring a lot of excitment to the races and a lot of people.
I like the fact we're now at the start of the Verstappen-Leclerc era (of which I am quite sure). And Charles is no whiner, he can be just as tough to Max. Just watch this little video. 
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Post by René on Jul 2, 2019 9:43:15 GMT
Just would like to add a personal sentiment; that I'm very pleased on the behalf of Honda and the Red Bull-Honda cooperation. A victory - even if it remains to be just one - puts the project in a completely different perspective. One victory - or no victories; this really defines whether the project (of Honda) will be considered as a success or as a failure. Of course, the World Championship is the ultimate measure of success; but still, now, some years hence, Honda can say that their F1 hybrid/turbo project ultimately became a success.
In comparison, the F1 project of Toyota in the early 00's produced a number of 2nd and 3rd places, but not one single victory; and thus, in the public eye (as I sense it), it is considered a failure.
It's fantastic that Honda finally won in the hybrid era. And how appropriate that just now a couple of Honda hot shots were present. And Max was very well aware of this!
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Post by robmarsh on Jul 2, 2019 11:34:24 GMT
Charles deserved to win, Ferrari did not.
Reliance on data, computers and artificial intelligence is dumbing down F1 to where the driver is irrelevant.
The FIA stewards take three hours to make a decision on whether Max was correct in leaving Charles no room, yet took only nine minutes to find Sebastian was wrong to do the same to Hamilton.
Max deserved a penalty if the stewards are consistent. How many times has he been involved in dubious actions when overtaking. If he is not reigned in somebody will get hurt.
Niki Lauda's 1975 Ferrari was the same width as the modern F1 car, ie 2 metres. How come he could overtake people without going off the track or having them move over after three corners of blue flags being waved. In many cases the tracks were not as wide as these are.
The observation that people have made that if there had been a wall there, then Leclerc would not have stayed on the outside fits into the category of "If my auntie had balls she would be my uncle". Quote courtesy of one Kejo Rosberg. There wasn't a wall and if Max gave him room the previous lap so he should have again.
Artficial Intelligence is exactly that..artificial. A computer is binary, it is either yes or no, repeated many many times very very quickly. Sometimes in a race you need a maybe. Only a human can do that.
Nice to see Mercedes struggle for a change, though the drivers were very well mannered about it. Also nice that Valteri beat Lewis.
The McLaren boys are awesome. Sainz was very special in the race and Norris had a great first lap.
George Russell was also very good. I was most impressed to see him a couple of places up in the early part of the race considered he started from the pit lane.
I enjoyed the race and if Vettel had not got that penalty in Canada, I would have enjoyed the result as well as Max did put in a good drive but I still think his move lacked manners.
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Post by charleselan on Jul 2, 2019 14:06:01 GMT
Now with that little rant out of the way let me give my personal perspective on the "overtake". To me the stewards verdict matches up with what we now call in world political terms as "populism". I am in no doubt that had any other driver other than Max or Lewis have pulled that move then there would have been a penalty; period! There is a rule that you do not drive another competitor off the circuit, and that is what Max did to Charles. In the post race "S*Y Pad" debrief Paul de Resta was attempting to make big the general feeling of the whole S*Y team that there should be no penalty. However as he was about to bring out his coup de gras, the onboard footage from Max's car, one could almost see the gears in his head working overtime. His main thrust was to be that Max had not adjusted the steering, which was true, as he didn't but what was apparent was that Verstappen had applied considerable lock to the right to counter a big dose of understeer brought about by his lunge into the corner. It was this understeer that carried him out into Charles, colliding with the Ferrari and forcing it off circuit. Max also missed the apex of the corner upon entry by a considerable margin which compounded his mistake. Therefore taking these observations into consideration he should have been penalised. Contrary to some comments I have read elsewhere that Charles is whining, I do not believe so as he is too honest to be so, his demeanour after the race looked very like a great French Canadian at Imola in 1982.
JC, I understand what you're saying although I am not in agreement with your view that only Max or Lewis would 'get away' with a move like this. The move was on the limit of what is acceptable, I agree with that but taking the win away from Max (what in effect any penalty would have done) would have been too much for me. Even when I really wanted Charles to win.
Many ex drivers thought the move was harsh but acceptable. Also Jan Lammers who had the same view that Charles would have given up the corner earlier had there been no run-off tarmac.
Max does remind of Senna and Schumacher more than any other young driver of late. Very talented, fast, driven and always on the edge of what is still sportsmanlike which doesn't always make him the most likeable person. But he does bring a lot of excitment to the races and a lot of people.
I like the fact we're now at the start of the Verstappen-Leclerc era (of which I am quite sure). And Charles is no whiner, he can be just as tough to Max. Just watch this little video.
René, As I stated in my original comment it is my view, and I do not feel that others should be obliged to agree with that perspective. I stand firmly behind my comment that these decisions are populist based, and that some drivers get away with things that others would not, hence the difference between Sebastian's penalty in Canada and there not being one for Max in Austria. Those in F1 can spin it which ever way they like in trying to make out they were different scenarios, but in the bigger picture they were not. The only difference being the relative popularity and commerciality of the the two drivers affected. If Max is to be included in the group of Senna and Schumacher then that to be honest is not something to be proud of, if we are talking integrity and in terms of sportsmanship. The ideology that to be a great driver you have to be ruthless and will not stop at anything to win is flawed, and in the end comes back and will bite one on the ar*e. As your excellent video clip shows Charles is no Prost, and has much more in common with Gilles, mark my words there will be a day of reckoning with Max for that move in Austria. With respect of the comments made about Charles not staying outside if there had been a wall there, that is total nonsense. Just look at the footage again and one can see that Max would have clouted a wall had it been there as he had more than half a cars width over the line, and I wager that had he not smacked into the Ferrari he would have been even farther off track. On the upside I am equally happy that Honda have finally won, and their trials and tribulations have finally been rewarded which is good news for the sport which desperately needed that to happen. JC |
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Post by robmarsh on Jul 2, 2019 17:50:24 GMT
Charles, like you, my first thought when I saw Charles Leclerc standing on the podium was that of Gilles at Imola all those years ago. I also think Max will never get away with that move he pulled.
I tried three times to post my earlier comment but kept bouncing out the system for some reason peculiar to my tablet when I was halfway through so eventually I shortened it. However, I did want to say that if what Max did on Sunday continues to be condoned then we will have another generation of drivers thinking that is the way to drive and it will be the FIA'S and Max's legacy and not just Senna and Schumacher.
When I raced Karts it was taboo to hit another kart. It should be even more so in F1.
I was very disappointed by the general consensus by motor racing scribes, Ross Brawn and others who condoned Max's actions. It reeks of populism as you say. It also seems to me that Seb has become the whipping boy in F1. Is it because he refuses to be on social media, keeps his life private life exactly that and is generally your normal boy next door? Those are the qualities I admire about him about him and he is a bloody fine driver to boot.
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Post by René on Jul 2, 2019 19:13:35 GMT
JC, I understand what you're saying although I am not in agreement with your view that only Max or Lewis would 'get away' with a move like this. The move was on the limit of what is acceptable, I agree with that but taking the win away from Max (what in effect any penalty would have done) would have been too much for me. Even when I really wanted Charles to win. Many ex drivers thought the move was harsh but acceptable. Also Jan Lammers who had the same view that Charles would have given up the corner earlier had there been no run-off tarmac.
Max does remind of Senna and Schumacher more than any other young driver of late. Very talented, fast, driven and always on the edge of what is still sportsmanlike which doesn't always make him the most likeable person. But he does bring a lot of excitment to the races and a lot of people. I like the fact we're now at the start of the Verstappen-Leclerc era (of which I am quite sure). And Charles is no whiner, he can be just as tough to Max. Just watch this little video.
René, As I stated in my original comment it is my view, and I do not feel that others should be obliged to agree with that perspective. I stand firmly behind my comment that these decisions are populist based, and that some drivers get away with things that others would not, hence the difference between Sebastian's penalty in Canada and there not being one for Max in Austria. Those in F1 can spin it which ever way they like in trying to make out they were different scenarios, but in the bigger picture they were not. The only difference being the relative popularity and commerciality of the the two drivers affected. If Max is to be included in the group of Senna and Schumacher then that to be honest is not something to be proud of, if we are talking integrity and in terms of sportsmanship. The ideology that to be a great driver you have to be ruthless and will not stop at anything to win is flawed, and in the end comes back and will bite one on the ar*e. As your excellent video clip shows Charles is no Prost, and has much more in common with Gilles, mark my words there will be a day of reckoning with Max for that move in Austria. With respect of the comments made about Charles not staying outside if there had been a wall there, that is total nonsense. Just look at the footage again and one can see that Max would have clouted a wall had it been there as he had more than half a cars width over the line, and I wager that had he not smacked into the Ferrari he would have been even farther off track. On the upside I am equally happy that Honda have finally won, and their trials and tribulations have finally been rewarded which is good news for the sport which desperately needed that to happen. JC JC sure, and a debate with total agreement on all sides is not really a debate is it?!  My view on your populism remark is maybe less sharp but we agree on more than may appear from this discussion at first. I struggle with Max the F1 driver. My comparison with Senna and Schumacher was not necessarily meant as a compliment, it was just an observation. They all were/are stupendously talented but also have this charachter trait that makes them step over the line on occasions while believing it is their (God given) right to do so. Max is the same and I don't like that. I am in awe of his talent but he wouldn't be my friend in real life. As a person I am more drawn to Charles or Seb as Rob mentioned. I also don't like the mass hysteria that is going on in my country with Max and judging all he does while looking through orange tinted glasses. Not my cup of tea. I have looked at the footage again and have to admit my view has shifted a bit. The move was probably over the limit as it looks to be intentionally to slide wide and thus leave Charles no room. But taking the win from Max? Still not sure about that. I feel that would have left more sour feelings and for Charles to win his first like that would also not be great. One thing is clear, they are both firmly on each others radar, have been for years. They both know who's the man to beat for the years to come. Charles does remind more of Gilles sometimes although I don't see the daredevil in Charles. He seems more calm and calculated to me. |
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Post by charleselan on Jul 3, 2019 10:50:54 GMT
Charles, like you, my first thought when I saw Charles Leclerc standing on the podium was that of Gilles at Imola all those years ago. I also think Max will never get away with that move he pulled. I tried three times to post my earlier comment but kept bouncing out the system for some reason peculiar to my tablet when I was halfway through so eventually I shortened it. However, I did want to say that if what Max did on Sunday continues to be condoned then we will have another generation of drivers thinking that is the way to drive and it will be the FIA'S and Max's legacy and not just Senna and Schumacher. When I raced Karts it was taboo to hit another kart. It should be even more so in F1. I was very disappointed by the general consensus by motor racing scribes, Ross Brawn and others who condoned Max's actions. It reeks of populism as you say. It also seems to me that Seb has become the whipping boy in F1. Is it because he refuses to be on social media, keeps his life private life exactly that and is generally your normal boy next door? Those are the qualities I admire about him about him and he is a bloody fine driver to boot. Rob, most interesting to hear that you also thought Charles' demeanour on the podium was like Gilles at Imola in 1982, it just rang a cord with me at the time. I agree with you that Sebastian has become the whipping boy currently, largely thanks to the English speaking online forums sadly where anyone opposed to their chauvinistic views are to be criticised. I was never a big fan of Sebastian the driver, however I really do like the man who is interviewed away from the track for he is likeable; humorous; intelligent and has so many interesting aspects to his life. He now strikes me as someone who is rapidly falling out of love with the sport and that is a real shame. I have always believed that contact and overly aggressive driving is opposed to the values of motor sport and F1, and that is why I have made my thoughts about Ayrton and Schumacher clear. Max is in a similar vein, and his attitude that if he cannot race like this what is the point of being in F1 is out of place. If he wishes to use these techniques then he would be better employed in NASCAR. It still rankles with me to this day that he got away scott free with his antics at Spa against Kimi, he should have had the book thrown at him that day. |
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Post by charleselan on Jul 3, 2019 11:09:52 GMT
René, As I stated in my original comment it is my view, and I do not feel that others should be obliged to agree with that perspective. I stand firmly behind my comment that these decisions are populist based, and that some drivers get away with things that others would not, hence the difference between Sebastian's penalty in Canada and there not being one for Max in Austria. Those in F1 can spin it which ever way they like in trying to make out they were different scenarios, but in the bigger picture they were not. The only difference being the relative popularity and commerciality of the the two drivers affected. If Max is to be included in the group of Senna and Schumacher then that to be honest is not something to be proud of, if we are talking integrity and in terms of sportsmanship. The ideology that to be a great driver you have to be ruthless and will not stop at anything to win is flawed, and in the end comes back and will bite one on the ar*e. As your excellent video clip shows Charles is no Prost, and has much more in common with Gilles, mark my words there will be a day of reckoning with Max for that move in Austria. With respect of the comments made about Charles not staying outside if there had been a wall there, that is total nonsense. Just look at the footage again and one can see that Max would have clouted a wall had it been there as he had more than half a cars width over the line, and I wager that had he not smacked into the Ferrari he would have been even farther off track. On the upside I am equally happy that Honda have finally won, and their trials and tribulations have finally been rewarded which is good news for the sport which desperately needed that to happen. JC JC sure, and a debate with total agreement on all sides is not really a debate is it?! My view on your populism remark is maybe less sharp but we agree on more than may appear from this discussion at first. I struggle with Max the F1 driver. My comparison with Senna and Schumacher was not necessarily meant as a compliment, it was just an observation. They all were/are stupendously talented but also have this charachter trait that makes them step over the line on occasions while believing it is their (God given) right to do so. Max is the same and I don't like that. I am in awe of his talent but he wouldn't be my friend in real life. As a person I am more drawn to Charles or Seb as Rob mentioned. I also don't like the mass hysteria that is going on in my country with Max and judging all he does while looking through orange tinted glasses. Not my cup of tea. I have looked at the footage again and have to admit my view has shifted a bit. The move was probably over the limit as it looks to be intentionally to slide wide and thus leave Charles no room. But taking the win from Max? Still not sure about that. I feel that would have left more sour feelings and for Charles to win his first like that would also not be great. One thing is clear, they are both firmly on each others radar, have been for years. They both know who's the man to beat for the years to come. Charles does remind more of Gilles sometimes although I don't see the daredevil in Charles. He seems more calm and calculated to me. René, this is the beauty of our forum as we can debate like gentlemen, and act just like friends down at the pub/bar. Everyone will have differing views on any subject and that is why I left the caveat in my original post, it was my view and not necessarily correct or incorrect. The hysteria that the "Orange Army" have surrounding Max is something that has been seen before but maybe not on such a scale for reasons that can be explained in simple terms of modern life. Back in the 1970's we had a similar situation in the UK with James Hunt, and for the time it was equivalent to what you see with Max today. You haven't yet witnessed a near riot as we did at Brands Hatch in 1976, but maybe that might have happened if max had been penalised last Sunday . Also do not under estimate the huge following Nigel Mansell had in the Uk when in his pomp, the track invasion after he won at Silverstone with the race still live was not clever. Neither of the two above were something I liked or appreciated at the time, so i can see your dislike of what you see in Holland now with Max, and his supporters. I agree with you that it would not have been ideal for Charles to have won his first GP in circumstances such as Max being penalised. Actually the best way of handling that considering the length of arriving at a decision by the stewards would have been to have allowed Max to keep the win, but to have made him start the next race from the back of the grid as a penalty. The one thing that really irked me after the race was when Horner was interviewed and he came out with the usual cr*p that he spouts in such situations, however the slimy little over entitled creep would have been squealing blue murder if it had been Charles who had made that move on Max. A thoroughly unappealing individual who conducts himself like so many who have come from a privileged background. JC |
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My view on your populism remark is maybe less sharp but we agree on more than may appear from this discussion at first.