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Post by René on Jun 25, 2019 15:13:23 GMT
Ah yes, Siebkens Resort!  You know, during the broadcast there were some shots of the fans in the grandstands and on the grass zones and I really wished I was there. And go for a beer at Siebkens after the race. I never had that feeling while watching the French Grand Prix. And I even have good memories of that place but it is no longer the same, no longer authentic like Road America. Or have we just become grumpy old men...?  I'm older and grumpier and thus a composite of both.
Rene, I have that same feeling every time. The casual seating, the beautiful countryside surrounded by dairy farms and small towns is idyllic. We're the ones who've experienced and value racing as it should be. Never mind the calendar, that's youthful optimism. Those who pay exorbitant admission and then accept without question being treated like third class steerage are the feeble ones. Road America and the many other circuits resistant to corporate sterility are what racing is all about. Well, that and great beer and bratwurst... theluggnutt.com/2018/11/13/the-gearbox-concessions-at-road-america-awarded-michelin-star/ Cheers (reluctantly), Carl Great reply Carl. Wow, a culinary bratwurst! Didn't even know that existed!   |
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Post by charleselan on Jun 25, 2019 17:16:13 GMT
Superb comments and reflections Carl & René. The whole motor sporting experience back in the day was exactly as you describe. Being in the rudimentary Grandstands was not really to my taste even when it was raining like there was no tomorrow, and believe me I have been to some pretty wet race meetings over the years. The International Trophy meeting at Silverstone in 1978 ( featured recently in "Who; What and when") was one such event. An unbelievable amount of rainfall with large lakes of standing water everywhere, so much so that several drivers went off on the sighting lap; Ronnie included  . For me and the friends who used accompany me it was a case of walking around the trackside spectator banking, viewing from as many different locations as possible. Pretty good photographic opportunities were still available right into the mid 1980's for the average spectator; and at Brands Hatch one could get so close to the track at certain locations like the inside of Dingle Dell bend. Seeing the grass banking all around the wonderful Road America just brought all those long off memories flooding back. If things were like that now I might still be tempted to go racing again, but nothing really comes close now in Europe with regard to car racing. We as spectators and real enthusiasts could see the way things were going from the mid '70's, and all thanks to the influence of Ecclestone and his blatant desire for a corporate identity, and making money for himself and his cronies. Firstly paddock access got more and more restrictive to the point that now only those with passes and "celebrity status" can avail themselves of this luxury or privilege ( I use this term advisedly nowadays ). On a slightly different topic I was fascinated to see the MB completely unobscured during Martin Brundle's "grid walk". There was no attempt to cover anything up which was very unusual, the vehicle even had its rear wheel removed at the time and Brundle was talking and pointing out items on the rear rotor and disc. Obviously MB are so confident in their ultimate supremacy that they feel that they do not need to hide such detail in 2019. What also struck me was the absolute vastness of the vehicle as viewed from the rear forwards; the thing looked so big it would almost need satellite navigation to steer the darn contraption. |
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Post by chrisb on Jun 25, 2019 18:57:58 GMT
well chaps, what a wonderful set of comments, my compliments to one and all, great to hear your opinions and disagreements but then we can, something sadly disallowed everywhere else, what's the term? "bring the game into disrepute" in other words you can disagree as much as you like but just don't say it....do you spell Orwell with one or two ll's?
I was away in a rather damp Ireland on a bike trip and managed to ride around the NW200 circuit in Portrush albeit at somewhat a slower pace, that is one scary, hairy brute of a circuit that defies logic and any brains, but my word is it exhilarating, something sadly F1 seems to have forgotten, as I actually forgot there was a GP on, for someone who insisted on reading his Autosport once at work and was threatened with the sack as a result, this is tantamount to treason, but I cannot get worked up about this plastic series that has a car so far ahead it is embarrassing, needless to say I haven't sought it out on utub, I will, however seek out the Indycar race, that sounded brilliant,
the Hulk, my favourite GP driver for a long time, was he ever that good? yes, he was, has he lost his mojo? possibly but the season ain't done yet, Rene a small wager with thee if I may, the Hulk will be on the podium before Seb wins again, whoever wins buys the other a small beer or two, I do still rate him and he reminds me in a way of Chris Amon, not as quick as Chris but a capacity to be in the wrong time at the wrong team, hope he does prove his worth although I fear it will be in WEC than F1,
from what you describe Carl, that just rocks me back to early Brands and where I could crawl under the wire and watch an afternoon's race with delight - ah fond days
the state of two countries lie on the hands of two such people, [liars both] and we have a choice of awful to dreadful both asset strippers and both have made a lot of money out of other's miseries [Hunt and Boris the Bodger] and Carl has a frump with a 'wonderful tan' oh dear, one day I will awake to find the Labour party has a leader I can believe in and so many Tories are in prison for corruption, and F1 has become interesting again - so much for my dreams
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2019 9:30:19 GMT
I think that it is a bit soon for Seidl to have made an impact on McLaren, he only joined them in May this year, and he certainly wasn't involved in the design of this season's car, so maybe you have to give Brown more credit for the turn around in the Team. It certainly has been an impressive turn around, they must be the Team that has made the biggest step forward this season. And it is not just McLaren that are closing up on Red Bull, Renault are pretty close too, for the second quali in a row. It might be different in the race, but, there is no longer such a gap between Red Bull and the mid pack. Hulkenberg is said to be disadvantaged over Ricciardo this weekend, Ricciardo has the latest upgrade power unit, and aero package, whereas The Hulk does not. The difference in the PU is said to be worth "at least a tenth", and the Gap in Q2 was just over a tenth. So maybe a bit early to write the Hulk off, he still kicks arse, especially in the races. In the power unit wars, this is the second race where there are more Renault powered cars in the top ten than Honda powered cars. And there has been another Honda p.u upgrade. Its good to see some convergeance on p.u performance. Gasly is certainly not coming close to matching Verstappen, and Red Bull being what it is, they're probably not going to give him more than this season to get on the pace. To be honest, they should have chosen Hartley over Gasley, much more capacity for improvement with the kiwi. I'm very disappointed to see that Kubica really doesn't seem able to get on the pace of Russell. I think we all had high hopes that he'd be able at least to do that, if not be the quicker of the two. I suppose that Kubica's dream really is over. Meanwhile, I wonder what is happening back at Grove. Is the review by PATRICK HEAD having any impact, and have they made any chnages to their structure or personell that could kick off the kind of turn around that we've seen from McLaren? And what is happening in Racing Point that has undermined their competitiveness this season (and no cheap shots at Lance, Perez is also struggling). Jim, thanks for responding to my post which was intended to create some debate. Some of my statements are therefore maybe a bit bold. As for Seidl, of course you are right. He has had no influence on the car whatsoever but I still think he is the right man in the right place. I had my doubts about Brown at first as he seemed more like a rich journeyman having some fun in F1. Not the man for McLaren. But the team looks in much better shape now and that must (at least partly) be credited to Brown. As for the Hulk, I remain with my statement. I like Nico, he's a really nice guy and a good driver but I've been having my doubts if he is really top class for years to be honest. Having this 'record' of most GPs contended without a podium is, in my opinion, not only bad luck. He's been driving for solid midfield teams for years so he should at least have scored one podium. He hasn't so in my mind that says he's not good enough. You could be right about Hartley. And as for Pierre, he really needs a sensational result now to change his luck I feel. Personally I never believed in the Kubica fairytale. It is a big shame as he really was a top line driver but he's just too slow now. Not even close to Russell. I agree Lance is not as bad as some say although he does look slower than Perez. Why Racing Point is not competitive is a mystery. You would expect them more in the midfield. But it is all very close so who knows, maybe they'll move up the grid in the seond half of the season. Money can't be a problem. I'm very easy to bait Rene ;-) With McLaren, Seidl's reputation is very strong, and he has definitely arrived at a team that is strongly improving, and very well resourced. So he has every chance of building success there. However, I'd really like to know why Jost Capito left McLaren so soon after Brown deposed Ron Dennis. His reputation and record are every bit as strong as Seidl, and potentially could have turned McLaren's performance around at least a season earlier. Looking at Racing Point, I wonder if their problem is to do with the restructuring and changes that are taking place under the new owners. Previously they were a very tight outfit, relatively small in numbers, but stable and effective in their use of resources, so changing even to grow can be distruptive to how they work. Also, maybe the leadership of Bob Fernley and Otmar Saffnauer was more effective than Saffnauer alone. Another interesting question as to why Fernley left Force India at the time of the sale...... I feel I should say something else in support of Hulkenberg. F1 is so car and Team dependent, that I always feel that we never really have a true view of the relative capabilities of the drivers. For example, everyone was on the Alonso hype-train in his last couple of years with McLaren, because it was accepted that he was getting results that were at the peak of what the car could deliver. How do we know that there aren't others in the field (such as the Hulk, Massa, Perez, etc) that have every bit as much skill as a Hamilton or Vettel, and are using that skill to maximise what their cars can deliver, but will never get a win, or even a podium, because of the dominance of three of four teams in the last couple of decades. I often suspect that it takes as much or more skill to drag an uncompetitive car to a finish, as it does for someone in a Mercedes to cruise to a win. |
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Post by René on Jun 26, 2019 12:45:48 GMT
the Hulk, my favourite GP driver for a long time, was he ever that good? yes, he was, has he lost his mojo? possibly but the season ain't done yet, Rene a small wager with thee if I may, the Hulk will be on the podium before Seb wins again, whoever wins buys the other a small beer or two, I do still rate him and he reminds me in a way of Chris Amon, not as quick as Chris but a capacity to be in the wrong time at the wrong team, hope he does prove his worth although I fear it will be in WEC than F1, Chris, you're on and I wouldn't mind losing even if I want Ferrari to win!  (and I'll buy you a beer anyway if we ever meet up..). Regarding the Hulk, I know he's quite a popular driver here on RRT and rightfully so. He's a very likeable guy and a very good driver. My comments must be seen in context because all the F1 drivers are extremely good and very skillful. Nico never had the opportunity to race a frontrunning F1 car so it remains difficult to judge how well he would do compared to others who have.
But again, for me personally, I have not seen enough 'wow' results from Nico to say he should be in a Mercedes or a Ferrari. And the fact that he is not also tells us something. He has been on shortlists of top teams before but in the end they didn't chose him.
But I do hope he finally takes a podium this season!!! |
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Post by René on Jun 26, 2019 12:58:37 GMT
Jim, thanks for responding to my post which was intended to create some debate. Some of my statements are therefore maybe a bit bold. As for Seidl, of course you are right. He has had no influence on the car whatsoever but I still think he is the right man in the right place. I had my doubts about Brown at first as he seemed more like a rich journeyman having some fun in F1. Not the man for McLaren. But the team looks in much better shape now and that must (at least partly) be credited to Brown. As for the Hulk, I remain with my statement. I like Nico, he's a really nice guy and a good driver but I've been having my doubts if he is really top class for years to be honest. Having this 'record' of most GPs contended without a podium is, in my opinion, not only bad luck. He's been driving for solid midfield teams for years so he should at least have scored one podium. He hasn't so in my mind that says he's not good enough. You could be right about Hartley. And as for Pierre, he really needs a sensational result now to change his luck I feel. Personally I never believed in the Kubica fairytale. It is a big shame as he really was a top line driver but he's just too slow now. Not even close to Russell. I agree Lance is not as bad as some say although he does look slower than Perez. Why Racing Point is not competitive is a mystery. You would expect them more in the midfield. But it is all very close so who knows, maybe they'll move up the grid in the seond half of the season. Money can't be a problem. I'm very easy to bait Rene ;-) With McLaren, Seidl's reputation is very strong, and he has definitely arrived at a team that is strongly improving, and very well resourced. So he has every chance of building success there. However, I'd really like to know why Jost Capito left McLaren so soon after Brown deposed Ron Dennis. His reputation and record are every bit as strong as Seidl, and potentially could have turned McLaren's performance around at least a season earlier. Looking at Racing Point, I wonder if their problem is to do with the restructuring and changes that are taking place under the new owners. Previously they were a very tight outfit, relatively small in numbers, but stable and effective in their use of resources, so changing even to grow can be distruptive to how they work. Also, maybe the leadership of Bob Fernley and Otmar Saffnauer was more effective than Saffnauer alone. Another interesting question as to why Fernley left Force India at the time of the sale...... I feel I should say something else in support of Hulkenberg. F1 is so car and Team dependent, that I always feel that we never really have a true view of the relative capabilities of the drivers. For example, everyone was on the Alonso hype-train in his last couple of years with McLaren, because it was accepted that he was getting results that were at the peak of what the car could deliver. How do we know that there aren't others in the field (such as the Hulk, Massa, Perez, etc) that have every bit as much skill as a Hamilton or Vettel, and are using that skill to maximise what their cars can deliver, but will never get a win, or even a podium, because of the dominance of three of four teams in the last couple of decades. I often suspect that it takes as much or more skill to drag an uncompetitive car to a finish, as it does for someone in a Mercedes to cruise to a win. Good point about Capito, must have been a personal thing. Was Capito a Ron signing? Growing pains at Racing Point sounds plausible. Let's just hope they don't lose that very effective 'hands on' racing approach that always brought them results. I have actually no idea what daddy Stroll's role is next to the financing. Is he wise enough to let the racers do the racing inside the team? As for the Hulk, I agree about what you say that it takes a lot of skill to drag an uncompetitive car to a finish but I would also say that the best drivers always end up in the best cars/teams.
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Post by charleselan on Jun 26, 2019 14:48:40 GMT
I am pretty certain that Jost Capito was a Ron Dennis signing, and he left when Brown assumed control. Always thought that as a huge mistake as Capito's credentials were exemplary and as Jim states easily on a par with the excellent Seidl. However Jost now holds a high ranking position in the VW Group I believe and would not be interested in any position with a tin pot F1 team!
With regard to Forced Stroll I did read that Bob Fernley was moved on due to his close links with the previous owner and that did not fit well with the new owners. Another unfortunate and mistaken route as Bob was an extremely capable manager who i feel made that team really function.
The discussion about Nico Hulkenburg is a good one. I am in no way a fan in the strictest sense, to me he is just another driver in F1, but I respect his ability. I also respect other peoples views and reasons as to why they think a certain driver fits a given standard. Chris says that in some ways Nico reminds him of Chris Amon in that he is always in the wrong place at the wrong time, but not as fast as Chris; I agree with that scenario. For me Nico isn't one of the greats, but, like many he has the ability to achieve much more in the sport should a good and competitive car come his way (sadly the way things are now in F1 that is unlikely, unless Renault start on the magic mushrooms).
Personally I think that Nico has matched up very well to his team mate who has been paid far more to do a similar job. One would also say that he has driven some far more intelligent races of late as well. I would also say that René's comparison with Perez is somewhat unfair due to the fact that when they were teammates the weight and size of a driver were not balanced. Nico being a big chap was very much handicapped against the smaller and lighter Perez.
Further on from this I wonder if Ricciardo is beginning to wonder if he did the correct thing in signing for Renault rather than the offer he had from McLaren, seeing as to how the Woking cars are going this year. Also are the Fizzy Drinks corporation having regrets for letting Sainz Jnr go, seeing as to how Pierre Gasly appears to be struggling thus far. I am not writing Gasly off, like some are on the various sites, but young Carlos would be right up with Max if he were driving the "Sports Drink Special".
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Post by Carl on Jun 26, 2019 16:20:15 GMT
the Hulk, my favourite GP driver for a long time, was he ever that good? yes, he was, has he lost his mojo? possibly but the season ain't done yet, Rene a small wager with thee if I may, the Hulk will be on the podium before Seb wins again, whoever wins buys the other a small beer or two, I do still rate him and he reminds me in a way of Chris Amon, not as quick as Chris but a capacity to be in the wrong time at the wrong team, hope he does prove his worth although I fear it will be in WEC than F1, Chris, you're on and I wouldn't mind losing even if I want Ferrari to win! (and I'll buy you a beer anyway if we ever meet up..). Regarding the Hulk, I know he's quite a popular driver here on RRT and rightfully so. He's a very likeable guy and a very good driver. My comments must be seen in context because all the F1 drivers are extremely good and very skillful. Nico never had the opportunity to race a frontrunning F1 car so it remains difficult to judge how well he would do compared to others who have.
But again, for me personally, I have not seen enough 'wow' results from Nico to say he should be in a Mercedes or a Ferrari. And the fact that he is not also tells us something. He has been on shortlists of top teams before but in the end they didn't chose him.
But I do hope he finally takes a podium this season!!! David Hobbs rated Nico Hulkenberg very highly and always lamented that every vacant seat over the years at Ferrari went to someone else. |
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Post by chrisb on Jun 26, 2019 20:44:59 GMT
Rene, that would be a real pleasure mon ami,
I think I rate the Hulk a bit more than most based on his named predecessor at Williams, Nico Rosberg, both were very competitive in lesser formulee and had some flashes at Williams, then Rosberg jollied off to MB and proved himself a worthy WDC, the same I believe would have happened to the Hulk had the opportunity arose. However in reality there are a number of younger, hungrier and talented drivers who will get more of an opportunity I would have thought now
it would be great to see McLaren back at the front as it would Wiliams but in the current circumstances I can't see it, does anyone know how long the engine contracts are for the likes of Forced Stroll and Williams?
Didn't know Seb is a fan of historic motorbikes, there is a great picture of him riding a 1960's Triumph Bonneville, what an excellent choice!
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Post by robmarsh on Jun 27, 2019 7:20:46 GMT
Seb's hobby is rebuilding motorbikes. I think he is a really nice chap, like I think the Hulk is and most of the drivers are if we met them away from the razzmatazz of a GP. The corporate atmosphere and political correctness which has such a grip on F1 really has no place being there. Motor racing is for petrol heads who like to call a spade a spade and who can't really abide the insincerity of the corporate animal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2019 11:19:43 GMT
Cheers Racers, I've really enjoyed these posts around Hulkenberg, Capito, Fernley, Racing India, and even Seb on a bike.
Lots of good comments are banter, lots of tangents to follow too.
A couple of tangents I'd like to pursue,
How do the group think we can actually tell how good a driver is, when the cars and teams are so critical to how well a driver can do?
After all, Kimi Raikonnen was winning races and challenging Vettel for much of last season. This season he is lucky to finish on the top ten, or even be the top Alfa driver, seldom getting ahead of Hukenberg, Sainz, etc etc. He didn't suddenly become a mid-pack driver over the last season break. Surely he is the same potentially race winning driver but in a much poorer car and less effective team.
What could be a format for F1 that was actually a true measure of driver skill, without going to a spec car series?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2019 11:23:13 GMT
I saw on GP 24/7 that Liberty announced that, "following the huge success of 007’s Bond In Motion exhibition in London, an exclusive touring version will visit six selected Grand Prix this year."
I'm sure that will be a fantastic exhibition, even if I can't quite see the link between Bond and F1.
However, here's a thought, which F1 driver (current or past) would have made a great James Bond?
And which Team Principle would make the best Bond villain?
My first thoughts;
F1 James Bond - Mark Webber
Bond Villain - Fabio Briatore, or Bernie Eccleston, or Helmut Marko, or Nikki Lauda, or Max Mosley, or......oh my god, there are just so many
Bond Ultra Villain - Jean-Marie Balestre!
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Post by Carl on Jun 27, 2019 20:02:07 GMT
I saw on GP 24/7 that Liberty announced that, "following the huge success of 007’s Bond In Motion exhibition in London, an exclusive touring version will visit six selected Grand Prix this year." I'm sure that will be a fantastic exhibition, even if I can't quite see the link between Bond and F1. However, here's a thought, which F1 driver (current or past) would have made a great James Bond? And which Team Principle would make the best Bond villain? My first thoughts; F1 James Bond - Mark Webber Bond Villain - Fabio Briatore, or Bernie Eccleston, or Helmut Marko, or Nikki Lauda, or Max Mosley, or......oh my god, there are just so many Bond Ultra Villain - Jean-Marie Balestre! That's an excellent thought, Jim! There certainly has been an excess of self-serving villainy in Formula One! I nominate ecclestone as the most accomplished devotee of evil.
I wonder if Chase Carey's moustache has any special devices akin to those on Bond's DB-5
The very first winner at Monaco, William Grover-Williams, was an actual secret agent and true hero of World War ll, whose bravery exceeded by good measure the demands of the Masta Kink at full throttle.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2019 10:01:22 GMT
I saw on GP 24/7 that Liberty announced that, "following the huge success of 007’s Bond In Motion exhibition in London, an exclusive touring version will visit six selected Grand Prix this year." I'm sure that will be a fantastic exhibition, even if I can't quite see the link between Bond and F1. However, here's a thought, which F1 driver (current or past) would have made a great James Bond? And which Team Principle would make the best Bond villain? My first thoughts; F1 James Bond - Mark Webber Bond Villain - Fabio Briatore, or Bernie Eccleston, or Helmut Marko, or Nikki Lauda, or Max Mosley, or......oh my god, there are just so many Bond Ultra Villain - Jean-Marie Balestre! That's an excellent thought, Jim! There certainly has been an excess of self-serving villainy in Formula One! I nominate ecclestone as the most accomplished devotee of evil.
I wonder if Chase Carey's moustache has any special devices akin to those on Bond's DB-5
The very first winner at Monaco, William Grover-Williams, was an actual secret agent and true hero of World War ll, whose bravery exceeded by good measure the demands of the Masta Kink at full throttle. It is hard to argue with Ecclestone as the biggest super villain, but when i think about the Team owners, there are so many of them that could play the part of a Bond super villain. It must be a characteristic of the type of hyper rich ego maniacs that want to turn a large fortune into a small one at the roulette table of F1. Cool information about William Grover-Williams. He was obviously a much more multi faceted character than most of the current F1 drivers. Thought, that is far as we know, may be a few more have been secret agents, and managed to retain their secrecy..... I could imagine Carey as a Felix Boxleitner character, with a Q enhanced moustache, and Ross Brawn as a very inventive and informative Q. |
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Post by charleselan on Jun 28, 2019 11:40:35 GMT
I saw on GP 24/7 that Liberty announced that, "following the huge success of 007’s Bond In Motion exhibition in London, an exclusive touring version will visit six selected Grand Prix this year." I'm sure that will be a fantastic exhibition, even if I can't quite see the link between Bond and F1. However, here's a thought, which F1 driver (current or past) would have made a great James Bond? And which Team Principle would make the best Bond villain? My first thoughts; F1 James Bond - Mark Webber Bond Villain - Fabio Briatore, or Bernie Eccleston, or Helmut Marko, or Nikki Lauda, or Max Mosley, or......oh my god, there are just so many Bond Ultra Villain - Jean-Marie Balestre! That's an excellent thought, Jim! There certainly has been an excess of self-serving villainy in Formula One! I nominate ecclestone as the most accomplished devotee of evil.
I wonder if Chase Carey's moustache has any special devices akin to those on Bond's DB-5
The very first winner at Monaco, William Grover-Williams, was an actual secret agent and true hero of World War ll, whose bravery exceeded by good measure the demands of the Masta Kink at full throttle.
Carl, Not to forget the equally brave Robert Benoit who also perished at the hands of the Nazi's, plus many more incredible brave souls. John Charles |
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(and I'll buy you a beer anyway if we ever meet up..).
